like this...Full Trucker is involved in a Beetle-Baja project. Sounds like it'll be a lot of fun.
raptors are nice.....
- Thread starter stevew
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No - I think he and his mates are going in the stock class...like this...
My oldest son who is 3½ passed one of the original beetles on the street the other day and said dad look its an old beetle. I was very proud and he was happy to see a real one.
I saw a Raptor yesterday as I was walking into the grocery store. It wasn't dirty or anything.....just looked like any other truck. But sure enough....the gap between the bed and cab was uneven.
If it hadn't been for this thread, I never would have noticed.
Thanks Ridemonkey.
If it hadn't been for this thread, I never would have noticed.
Thanks Ridemonkey.
see the bumpstop on the frame just above where the leaf springs meet the axle assembly. Look on the passenger side of the frame. You can see the section that is cut out so you can access the mounting bolt for the bump stop. Not only is that section cut out, the entire area is significantly smaller than the rest of the frame. I'd be all up in that area with a mig and a ****load of 6 gauge steelthere is no "rear section" on the Raptor. its all one piece like in most trucks
I still can't wrap my head around a $40K+ performance vehicle with an h-frame and leaf springs.
I've actually never even seen an inverted floating rear leaf spring shackle like that... but then again, my newest vehicle with leaf springs is a 2000 4runner.
Yeah lol at the ford haters. The 351 Windsor in my truck is probably one of the most reliable engines ever made.
Look closer that's 1950s tech albeit highly refined.
You can over drive the suspension on anything, 90% of the people I have seen with a raptor are pretty clueless (and paying for a 4x4 driving class really can't save you...) the truck is pretty well designed and the fact that a couple people went out and found out that it is in fact possible to bend the frame on a pickup if you beat the crap out of it absolutely does not really surprise me.
lol, go look at damn near any chevy truck starting in say 1973, they have the exact same set up.
I'll have to look under my f350 tonight, I think it also has the same set up. that is nothing new
That explains it then... I've never and will never own a chevy.
you know, "slugbug" rhymes way better. just sayin...
As for the raptor frame- they shoulda just gone with some fox airbumps bolted to the frame and could have kept it decently strong.
To all the people who are saying that this issue is caused by a few people who can't drive their trucks out there and not a design flaw- I disagree.
I've ridden in several stock trucks and jeeps that had the ever living crap driven out of them by people with no regard for the personal safety of themselves or their vehicle. Shoot, I had a "jump off" with a dune buggy in my jeep back when I was young a stupid (won it- 37 feet to flat baby!
). Had things like hood latches, shocks, tie rods, control arm mounts break, never EVER had a frame start sagging. For something built up and billed as this awesome desert pre-runner from the factory, it should be able to handle a few idiots with a heavy right for for at least a few years.... or maybe they all should have bought the beater POS trucks that my friends and I had in high school instead. 
I would 4 link that rear end before I even bought a stereo for it.....
hence it would still be cheaper to build your own
hence it would still be cheaper to build your own
that is a pretty stupid design, especially how it tapers right there too. i can see how large hits could bend it when it contacts the axle.
it wouldnt have been any stronger if they used the same mounting technique but it would prevent harsh bottom outs on the frame/axle. im sure space was a issue considering how much longer a hydraulic bottom out is
in hindsight, the truck was never meant to be a production roll out, it was a concept vehicle at the start but ford received over 4000 "paid" orders for the truck after the first 20 were built for trade shows.
they pushed it out a little too fast for small run productions with no proper field testing. now it is biting them in the butt.
they pushed it out a little too fast for small run productions with no proper field testing. now it is biting them in the butt.
racing it in the Baja is pretty good "field testing" in my book.
the only thing this thing shares with the F150 is a somewhat similar body. the frame and suspension are entirely new for this vehicle. i dont think a company like Ford would release a bad product in today's market
They wouldn't have needed the same mounting technique with external cans. Just weld a bracket to the inside of the frame, no need to weaken it with random holes.
I know Ford's QA requirements are super gnarly compared to most desert racing frame builders, but I gotta agree with gonefirefightin. A couple romps around a MDR track with their foot buried deep should have exposed this problem real quick.
Bet whatever vehicle they entered in whatever Baja race(s)? they ran wasn't completely stock.
its was pretty much a stock truck besides for engine mapping and obvious safety parts
The idea of the Raptor is great, I just wouldn't see myself buying one. If you want a pavement queen, then you have your own issues. If you want a truck that you can flog the **** out of, then why buy something brand new off the showroom for $40k? Seems like a truck for 10-15K and some extra cash would do nicely. Hell, Rangers are ideal if you just want to haul ass through the desert. Drop it off at Camburg and be done with it.
yup, my f350 has the same leaf spring design, model year 2000.
Mr Jones, have you been living under a rock?
Nope, just never owned a chevy. Only fords I owned were my 1973 mercury capri, a 1998 contour, and my wife's 2009 Focus. Never owned a mopar either. Mostly toyota, nissan, and honda. None of which ever had the rear shackle in that position.
Wow I had to create an account just to reply to this because it's so obliviously wrong. They completely tore the truck apart and installed a cage and a bunch of other items. Then they ran the truck gutted as a truggy. They almost didnt even et the truck running again the night before the race they had to spend all night wrenching just to get it to fire up. Then they completed the race and I think they got 3rd or something? But they were racing against things like old chevy blazers that were dezert kitted.
The full cage completely changed the chassis and that alone makes it a completely different truck then what they are selling. It's too bad they've got the frame bending issue, seems like a cool truck other than that. I know my $7,000 tacoma with $3500 in suspension could handle anything it can if not a whole lot more.
I like how American car manufacturers seem to avoid independent rear suspension like the plague.
I mean if you think the truck comes with huge bypass shocks and a full buggy cage stock with fiberglass bodywork then you are DREAMING!
Here's the truck they took through Baja. This thing could race any off road race and do well it's fully built!
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/ford-f-150-svt-raptor-r/#1135506
Here's the truck they took through Baja. This thing could race any off road race and do well it's fully built!
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/ford-f-150-svt-raptor-r/#1135506
I can't stop laughing at the leaf spring suspension. Great system for a basic pick'em up truck but I'd guess the weak looking springs on the Raptor make it a pretty low rated pick'em up.
isn't a deaver spring a leaf spring? cause I'm pretty sure deavers are what 90% of amateur desert runners run. maybe wrong, who cares it's the internet though.
Strength.
Cost too no doubt.
yes it is.
Leaf springs are old technology that works, if it didn't work, it would be obsolete.
For a truck they package very well, they work very well, and are a progressive spring that also locates the axle.
gonefirefighting made a comment about 4 linking the rear, when in reality that works well, it is very difficult to package a good working 4 link, or even better a trailing arm set up for desert use and still be able to have 100% use of the bed of the truck.
Up travel is important in desert use, but droop is even more important.
Air bumps work great, overall I really think the raptor is a pretty decent truck, handles what it was intended for well, ford just made a mistake on the frame section.
A roll cage would go MILES for stiffening that chassis and eliminating this problem, however that's a pretty extensive modification that makes the bed less useable for the average raptor owner, and also is difficult to package well inside the cab and fully tie into the frame.
Obviously it can be done, and once it is it stiffens everything up considerably, most desert pre-runner guys who build their own trucks do this, and that is why their frames do not bend.
I like the comment about dropping your truck off at camburg and having a better truck.
A pre-runner is not cheap to build, I have wanted to build one many times.
$2000 in fenders and bedsides, $6000 in suspension+ (a good 12-14" travel coilover is a $1500 shock and we aren't even considering A-arms, trailing arms, links, ends, steering etc), $1500 in a rear axle, extended axle shafts up front if you want to keep it 4wd, $1,000-$2,000 in tubing for bumpers, cage, and tieing it all together, link ends (heims = not cheap). etc, etc, etc, etc. Don't forget the tools and the know how to build and design a suspension that works, or paying a shop $100-200/labor hour to have the job completed.
Just a mild example, I spent $400 in tubing to build my roll cage in my wrangler, I tied it into the frame at the A, B and C pillars, tied in my seats, tied in my sons seat in the back, and I had about 20 hours into it as well as another couple hundred bucks in paint, bolts, plate steel and brackets, and don't forget the grinding wheels, tubing bender, dies, welder, wire, gas, etc. Let's say a shop says they can do it in 12-15 hours thats another $1200 labor on top of it.
My cage was fairly simple too. I know a cage is not a pre-runner, but I am just pointing out how much custom fabrication can cost.
Plus whatever engine or transmission mods you may need. (your stock 22re putting out 90 hp in your tacoma is gonna have a hell of a time pushing all this extra weight through the desert)
It adds up. No
For a factory pre-runner the raptor is a pretty solid deal, they should warranty the frames and make a modification to prevent it, because it seems to happen to easily, but overall it's a pretty solid platform.
Yeah, you will end up with a better truck if you build it from scratch, but you'll spend a ton of money doing it also.
expedition, explorer, escape, all independant rear suspension SUV's.
Look at the average pre-runner truck, 99% of them including trophy trucks are running a solid rear axle. even many of the truggies and some of the buggies are running a solid rear axle.
I have friends who run in King of the Hammers, they also race in the TREC racing series at the badlands, they all run straight front and rear axles due to strenght, simplicity, and cost.
To build a 4 wheel drive independant front suspension costs 25-30k to get 12-14" of travel.
Most pre-runners and trucks that run baja 1000 are 2wd. The differential, axle/cv shafts, and cv/axle joints are expensive to be able to get to run the kind of angles needed to have that kind of travel.
How much would it cost to merely build to a Raptor level, instead of to the rather extreme race-ready level that you're describing?
You could easily build a Tundra or something to that spec with a full cage for 20K.
Well, my brother is running the fox shocks off a raptor on his jeep cherokee for TREC racing, I can't recall what he paid for them, but suffice it to say they are not cheap.
Fenders and flared bedsides to fit bigger tires $2000
4 shocks
400 horsepower/6 speed transmission
Deavers or similar custom leaf spring pack
Custom or upgraded front springs
Custom or upgraded front suspension components
35" tires ($200 + each)
Upgrading suspension to mild long travel, or extreme long travel isn't going to cost you "that much" less than going all out.
Yes, it would cost you less, but you're still throwing a lot of money out there to make a comparable truck.
Desert racing is a lot more about suspension, and how much of it you have than anything else, and that's not cheap.
I am assuming you are planning to take an existing truck, with a factory warranty, and modify it, since that would be comparing apples to apples.
Otherwise, you're still going to have a lot of money just into a typical 2wd ranger or 2wd toyota often used to build a pre-runner style truck, which doesn't compare in size, or hp, or being 4wd as well.
I
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The bottom line is that if your sole intent is to take a vehicle out to the desert and thrash it, stuff is going to break. New or used. The Raptor's biggest weakness is not having a full cage, which is where off road vehicles get their strength from. But how many people are going to buy a truck for ~$50K and then have it cut up to fit a cage in it? In any truck that passes the 'bolt on long travel and deavers' set up, the bed is unusable. To get bypass shocks in with more travel and something like a 4 link setup, you have to run shocks through the bed. Most of the bolt on kits that would be similar to a Raptor aren't that expensive relatively. Take a look at Camburg's site and see what they offer.
Here's a kit that offers similar suspension performance to the Raptor.
http://www.camburg.com/ford/09-11-f-150/performance-09-11-f-150/performance-kit-3/
http://www.camburg.com/
Here's a kit that offers similar suspension performance to the Raptor.
http://www.camburg.com/ford/09-11-f-150/performance-09-11-f-150/performance-kit-3/
http://www.camburg.com/
my understanding was that the raptor was basically an over-the-counter version of this: http://offroadmasterpiece.com/index.html, not a full on race truck. Kind of like buying a walmart DH bike...no matter what it's labeled as, it's not a full on DH sled. Of course, the cost of the raptor is <10% of the truck I listed...
Volvo shows their cars slamming into stationery objects in their commercials. Ford shows the Raptor airing to flat at 80. We should believe both ads and emulate them.