[JRogers]

There seems to be a lot of arguing going on and not a lot of actual disagreement.

In any case, I used a 66sl all last season on my DH bike. I bought it because it was cheaper (got a good deal on it) and lighter than the DC forks I was looking at.

My riding on the bike is 90% or more lift-served DH and racing- not much freeriding or climbing (and if there is, it's pushing and walking). I'm right in the middle of most guys speed-wise (race expert, but probably will never win). I didn't have any problems over the season and didn't feel like the fork was holding me back. I have not fully liked the damping/spring setup, but that has little to do with the DC/SC debate. The bike previously had a Shiver on it. The 66sl isn't as outright plush or hassle-free, but the lower weight is worth the tradeoff.

I haven't noticed it being more or less stiff than other DC forks I've owned or used, but, then again, I'm not the most discerning rider when it comes to stiffness. I am not sure I'd make the exact same choice if I could do it again, but that has nothing to do with it being an SC fork.

As I said, I am not completely happy because of issues that the fork is known to have (not sure about the '08 RC3 versions...mine is an '07...some of this might have been fixed in later '07 versions)- automatic travel wind down, leaky top caps, not getting full travel. I have fixed the first two issues on my own, but the last one remains. Also, it's kind of hard to tune, even if you know what you're doing. Of course, there's the rebound and compression knobs, but there's also the PAR chamber, ATA chamber and the preload chamber in the right leg- 3 freaking air chambers. I plan on removing the PAR piston to simplify it and make the fork less progressive and hopefully get more travel.

 

[muddy beast]

I dont feel like reading all of this debating crap...but I thought I'd throw this picture out there. It's a shot of one of the guys bikes I was riding with after he snapped the steerer tube on his 66 when we were bombing Schleyer up in Whistler.

 

[Bulldog]

I think if you read above you will see where I gave this info and many have done this already on Ridemonkey.

I said quantitative testing, not qualitative. I want to see numbers, not "think, feel, opinion" blah blah blah.

 

[Bulldog]

Bad example, as RS has neglected the boxxer chassi for a while. How long have they been using 32mm stanchions?

Being as they are two of the most popular choices for a long travel fork I think it's an excellent example. That tiny undersized Boxxer with nice little "efficient" steerer STILL easily weighs more than a Totem (both solo air 6.2-Boxxer vs 5.9-Totem, or both coil 6.9-Boxxer vs 6.3-Totem)! A future, bigger Boxxer will only get more heavy or less durable.

 

[FCLinder]

I said quantitative testing, not qualitative. I want to see numbers, not "think, feel, opinion" blah blah blah.

Didn't mean to come off as a DiK there man. That I am not and am sorry if you thought so. Yes it would be nice to see some real world stress testing between all the top Forks out there.

 

[Bulldog]

Didn't mean to come off as a DiK there man. That I am not and am sorry if you thought so. Yes it would be nice to see some real world stress testing between all the top Forks out there.

Didn't take you that way at all. I'm just a numbers geek even though I can E-speculate with the rest of 'em! Actual numbers would be the quickest way to settle a lot of these discussions.

 

[DirtyMike]

I dont feel like reading all of this debating crap...but I thought I'd throw this picture out there. It's a shot of one of the guys bikes I was riding with after he snapped the steerer tube on his 66 when we were bombing Schleyer up in Whistler.

Thats awesome, Ive seen Pictures damn near Identical to that but the headtube is attached to the DC fork, 888 in fact.





Not trying to Bag your picture there, its a pretty cool pic, but the more I see DH and the more I see Freeriding, the more Pros I see running SC forks. So seeing the abuse they go through, I cant belive that they are inferior to a dc fork.





I will Goggle a pic up in a bit, I am off to go get dinner

 

[ChrisKring]

Didn't take you that way at all. I'm just a numbers geek even though I can E-speculate with the rest of 'em! Actual numbers would be the quickest way to settle a lot of these discussions.

Your right. It would be nice if some of the magazines would do that type of testing. I know that some of the fork manfuctures have this data. It would make a good marketing campaign to the data to prove why your component is better than another companies component. Sort of like all those truck commercials.

 

[DirtEveryDay]

Gawd i love seeing pics like that! Can almost feel the headtube digging into the dirt in slow motion.....arms getting folded under, turning your head so the chinbar doesn't dig in and do the stutter-slide....and then the ringing bells....ah yes.
Not to take anything away from that and not in defense of either, but I'm sure(if I felt like looking right now)that pic could be matched with a few snapped dc forks as well. Like I said, and I'm sure we'll all agree: everything breaks! Wasn't there something about some kid buying one of Carlin Dunnes old forks at a race, he put it on there and snapped the stanchions off in the parking lot riding back to his truck or something? That would suck!

Here's something else: When I had my 888 I always looked for signs of wear or stretching on the stanchions right below the lower clamp. That was pretty much the only warning you're really gonna get. With todays SC forks, I've somehow got it in my head that the stanchions really aren't the issue, that the steerer tube would bend first. Possibly pure ignorance, but I'd like to think that the steerer tube is the weak link on the fork and that may not be correct. And I'm really nervous now that I saw a snapped one again. Kinda like the carbon bar versus traditional. Bending is better than breaking in every case.
Perhaps a softer, more malleable steerer tube would act as a "fuse" and as a "Get out of Jail Free" card all at the same time?

 

[JRogers]

With todays SC forks, I've somehow got it in my head that the stanchions really aren't the issue, that the steerer tube would bend first. Possibly pure ignorance, but I'd like to think that the steerer tube is the weak link on the fork and that may not be correct.

I think you're right about that based on how reinforced the crown/steerer tube area is on SC forks. As someone else mentioned already, the steerer/crown junction on the 66 forks has tons of metal in there. I think there's more metal than air at the bottom of the tube.

 

[DirtEveryDay]

And actually, to answer my own theory up there, when my bud Adam switched to a single crown he milled up a shaft that I called the "Thug Plug." It was pre-heat treated aluminum that he milled to fit exactly inside the steerer tube of his 66. It slipped in from the bottom and then a larger than standard bolt threaded in through a custom top cap to pull it into place. His theory behind it was basically what I just said: To let it bend before it breaks, or atleast hold it together if it did. No issues and it was hefty, but gave him that securety blanket. Forgot all about that...

 

[CrabJoe StretchPants]

Seriously, the biggest roadblock between SC forks being as reliable as DC forks is us. We're so obsessed with saving weight these days (in general) that the envelope is being pushed VERY far with what we can do with given materials, engineering practices and manufacturing processes. At least that's my take on it. 160mm, sub 5lb forks that can withstand a 240lb aggressive rider is pretty good if you ask me. And for SC forks to be designed/engineered/manufactured/tested that are around 8" travel, around 5lbs AND as reliable as most DC forks out there, it would require a lot of time, labor and money, much more than I think any fork manufacturer is willing to risk spending, knowing they generate plenty of revenue with current models.

Not sure if that makes sense or not, but it does to me. Basically you have to realize at the end of the day, bikes are bikes. They're some of the simplest machines out there, and to spend insane amounts of money and time researching and developing some things (ie super light, long travel SC forks) isn't really a logical route for most manufacturers to go down. Prices for parts are ridiculously high enough as is.

 

[P.T.W]

please everyone,put all known forks aside and just look at the facts and theories. You can't do an experiment without the same factors,we do not have any examples with the same factors so there is no statistics that or experience from current forks that really support any argument completely.
Logic and facts,keep it too logic and facts.
Lets start a list of facts.

facts

totem solo airs
2676g
180mm travel
boxxer world cups
2812g
203mm travel

guesses
now im pretty sure that the axle to crown measurement is pretty much the same between these two forks

so for a saving of 136grams you get 23mm less travel,the same headangle an a potential weak spot....but you do get the abilty to do xups etc

in my opinion thats a clear win for dual crown forks for dh use

oh an you also get a handy place to mount your number board

 

[DirtEveryDay]

oh an you also get a handy place to mount your number board

That is a f*cker, isn't it...?

 

[Inclag]

I've been following this thread for a while and my god, this thing is one of the better train wrecks I've seen. Good job 's

 

[BIGHITR]

Hehe, he's a nut. wouldn't surprise me though.

Hmmm, Suzuki RM-250 tail whip... sounds neat. Six months from the first day it's done, Travis will be pulling off superman tailwhips and the dreaded upside down rodeo backflip tailwhip ending with a cliff hanger no hander lander... and the crowd goes wild!

 

[kev211]

Ck, your last comment cracks me up! Pretty much the most useless reply I've ever gotten to a thread!
So....do ALL DJ guys ride...DC forks then? And I've just not noticed?

Hey man, im with you. I love my single crown. I just need to get some stiffer springs. But other than that, its not a bad fork. Wouldnt mind a stiffer DC but this will do

 

[no skid marks]

If you had spend any time on a Totem & a Boxxer, you would soon realise that the Totem is WAY stiffer than the Boxxer.

In fact, its comparable to my Fox 40's in 1.5" guise. And weighs a pound less, for 20mm less travel.

The A-C of a Totem isn't too bad either, same as a Boxxer in 203mm travel mode.

Um yeah,the Totem has fatter stanchions and steerer. With the 1 1/8th steerer what's the weight difference. What you've said is trivial and just agrees with what was stated. You cannot have the same AC height,weight,travel,strength and stiffness with a single crown fork as you can with a tripple if made to the same specs(same damping,springs etc).
Thrillseeker,what's your mission mate? Shut the F*** up for a bit unless you have usefull info to ad.
There's to topics here.
One is single crown Vs dual and the theory behind it(I just mentioned the differences above).
The other is current available single crowns Vs current available singles. There's no single that matches every thing that the best tripple does(weight,strength,durrability,AC height). This is the DH section,don't forget where this thread is.
If you don't do propper DH then get a single,if you prefer the bennefits of a single(full turning circle,better knee clearance)get a single. But do not confuse the facts here or avoid them with crap talk that makes no sense.
CK,Never argue with an idiot,they'll break you down to their level and beat you with experience.

 

[ArthurDH]

AC height is the same between the totem and the boxxer if you set the boxxer crowns height on the lowest possible

 

[davep]

facts

totem solo airs
2676g
180mm travel
boxxer world cups
2812g
203mm travel

guesses
now im pretty sure that the axle to crown measurement is pretty much the same between these two forks

so for a saving of 136grams you get 23mm less travel,the same headangle an a potential weak spot....but you do get the abilty to do xups etc

in my opinion thats a clear win for dual crown forks for dh use

oh an you also get a handy place to mount your number board

totem a-c = 565 +5/-1 mm
boxxer a-c = 568 +5/-1 mm

 

[no skid marks]

They have different travel. Can you guys read or what.
The Totem is probably stiffer than a boxxer and lighter. But it has less travel and I doubt will last as long. The boxxer is likely at the flexiest end of the triple clamp range,whilst the Totem is probably the stiffest single crown currently available.

 

[davep]

Just trying to add to the actual data...never said they were the same travel...just the same a-c.

I honestly dont understand the desire to loose an inch of travel if the fork is going to be the same length. I have gone to great lenghs to keep my bars low and going to a single crown with a 1.5 steerer (only way I would run that kind of lever) would loose me 1 inch of travel YET raise my bars an inch..not something I would want.

 

[no skid marks]

With a 1.5 frame,another thing to concidder is a zero stack headset can be used with triples to reduce the height also.Yes it could be used with singles for arguments sake,but you'd be loosing strength etc.

 

[DirtEveryDay]

With a 1.5 frame,another thing to concidder is a zero stack headset can be used with triples to reduce the height also.Yes it could be used with singles for arguments sake,but you'd be loosing strength etc.

I'M THE IDIOT??? Apparently you can't even read as your last 3 posts were just complete repeats of something someone else said 3 pages ago!
And you aren't even catching the point that Davep was trying to make! For the inch in travel difference and for being stronger, the Totem only sits 3 mm lower.

"The Totem is probably stiffer than a boxxer and lighter. But it has less travel and I doubt will last as long."

Way to use your facts there genius. Must be true if you said so.

And I don't have to have a mission. This is my thread, I'll add all the crap I want, so shut your mouth or get the **** out. You've become the new dumbass in this thread, CK, you're off the hook.

Davep thanks for TRYING to make a point, atleast I got it. And that's not too surprising with the Totem, never really have been into that thing.

 

[bushrider]

I have 2 DH bikes one with a 06 boxxer WC and one with a 06 66SL.
I can feel no difference in stiffness between the 2 forks and I ride mostly at diablo which is one of the rockiest courses in the US.
The boxxer is a little plusher, much easier to setup and has 33mm more travel.

I think the boxxer weighs 6.2lbs and the 66 weighs 5.8.

That said I think there is a small safety advantage with a DC since there is no single point of failure (you have to break 2 stanchions rather than a single steerer tube).
That said if the 66 failed at the steerer tube its likely the boxxers stanchions would fail below the crown.

So overall I would say an SC is fine for DH as long as your happy with 170/180mm max travel.

 

[DirtyMike]

Just trying to add to the actual data...never said they were the same travel...just the same a-c.

I honestly dont understand the desire to loose an inch of travel if the fork is going to be the same length. I have gone to great lenghs to keep my bars low and going to a single crown with a 1.5 steerer (only way I would run that kind of lever) would loose me 1 inch of travel YET raise my bars an inch..not something I would want.

For me, the answer to that is that I feel very comfortable with 180mm, and I like the Geo I get with the 66, and I like that The geo doesnt change as much as with 200 mm travel. Thats just me and my preference though.




Seriously, this thread has gotten very off topic, The original question was, "Why not SC for DH?" The real answer is, You can, todays SC forks can take the abuse, If it fits your desires and riding style, then its for you. MB, I like your picture, and I understand If i run single crown fork, I might snap a steerer when I case a jump, Or Nose plow into the ground, or plow a step up ETC, But I know in the same situations you can Shear a headtube, I have personally seen both happen.


Now, I called My Inside buddy at Marzocchi last night, His exact words,
" The industry is pushing the SC fork for the freeriders, They are plenty burly enough for DH, so dont be afraid to beat on them. The bigest reason people run them is for tricks, or they can only have one bike and the SC fork fits the bill better for them that way they can trail ride and DH the same bike."

Wether or not thats the full story behind it, WHo knows, but that was his take on the current situation.


They work for DH just fine. Do they work for you for DH? thats up to you.

 

[djamgils]

just made some calculations concerning crown strengt on a dc and sc.
Made some assumptions like the volume of the upper crown and the longer stanchion will be added to the volume of the single crown. Both have the same axle to crown distance. And the force excerted is (with the fork perpendicular to the ground) parallel to the ground. So there will be torsion on the single crown and a normal force on the lower crown of the dc setup.

My conclusion on the shear forces in the crowns where that a dc lower crown has a tension that is more then 2 times lower then in the single crown.
This means that a sc will break 2 times as fast.

DISCLAIMER(or whatever you call it) This wont mean that every sc is weaker then a dc, this is my conclusion made with the mentioned assumptions. And besides that, I could be wrong with my calculations.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/555/afbeelding307fj9.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2532/afbeelding308pz7.jpg

I will try to make some basic calculations on the steerer tube of the sc and dc later if there is a need for it.

 

[seth505]

the way people are so fascinated with saving weight these days, I predict people using a rock shox SID on their dh bike soon.

 

[xy9ine]

the way people are so fascinated with saving weight these days, I predict people using a rock shox SID on their dh bike soon.

sweet:

 

[ChrisKring]

just made some calculations concerning crown strengt on a dc and sc.
Made some assumptions like the volume of the upper crown and the longer stanchion will be added to the volume of the single crown. Both have the same axle to crown distance. And the force excerted is (with the fork perpendicular to the ground) parallel to the ground. So there will be torsion on the single crown and a normal force on the lower crown of the dc setup.

My conclusion on the shear forces in the crowns where that a dc lower crown has a tension that is more then 2 times lower then in the single crown.
This means that a sc will break 2 times as fast.

DISCLAIMER(or whatever you call it) This wont mean that every sc is weaker then a dc, this is my conclusion made with the mentioned assumptions. And besides that, I could be wrong with my calculations.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/555/afbeelding307fj9.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2532/afbeelding308pz7.jpg

I will try to make some basic calculations on the steerer tube of the sc and dc later if there is a need for it.

Holy crap, a free body diagram and a calculation. Nice work. I glanced over it. Looks like you set it up correctly. I'll look at it in more detail at home tonight. I set up the FBD and equations for the steerer tube case last night but abandoned it since no one seemed to care.

 

[dump]

the travel of that SID actually felt pretty good! time to hit up some DH runs with it

 

[BMXman]

the way people are so fascinated with saving weight these days, I predict people using a rock shox SID on their dh bike soon.

exactly...if a rider truly wanted to save weight they should start with themselves....losing 10-15 lbs will make you a faster and better rider than any piece of bike equipment...D

 

[John P.]

exactly...if a rider truly wanted to save weight they should start with themselves....losing 10-15 lbs will make you a faster and better rider than any piece of bike equipment...D

Couldn't agree more; even if you don't lose weight, getting in shape makes a big difference. I replaced 15 pounds of fat with 15 pounds of muscle last year, and I guarantee you it did a lot more for my riding than saving 0.3 pounds on a fork.

 

[seth505]

Couldn't agree more; even if you don't lose weight, getting in shape makes a big difference. I replaced 15 pounds of fat with 15 pounds of muscle last year, and I guarantee you it did a lot more for my riding than saving 0.3 pounds on a fork.

dude, I thought you looked muscled up when I saw you at highland! aha

 

[CBJ]

exactly...if a rider truly wanted to save weight they should start with themselves....losing 10-15 lbs will make you a faster and better rider than any piece of bike equipment...D

I would have to cut of an arm then.

 

[John P.]

dude, I thought you looked muscled up when I saw you at highland! aha

LOL. With the Mitchell Report ready to make headlines, Barry Bonds and Roger Clements were blowing out their personal stashes of 'roids for 10 cents on the dollar, and I knew a good deal when I saw one.

 

[BMXman]

I would have to cut of an arm then.

lol...I think the only folks that should be so into weight are those folks that are under 160lbs or so...then it makes sense theres no point in having a bike that's nearly a third of your body weight!...D

 

[CBJ]

Agree I am 6'1" and 158 lbs dressed and I am even have a little more fat than normally because of the pregnancy eating. My riding did benefit from a lighter bike for sure. When I had my 2001 Stab Primo that bike were in charge more than me.

 

[BMXman]

Agree I am 6'1" and 158 lbs dressed and I am even have a little more fat than normally because of the pregnancy eating. My riding did benefit from a lighter bike for sure. When I had my 2001 Stab Primo that bike were in charge more than me.

ahh the memories...I liked mine....D

 

[CBJ]

Good memories for sure!