Terry Schiavo again...

Changleen · Mar 20, 2005

Ah, G-d vs. $$$. Gotta love it.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 20, 2005

Silver said:
why should my tax dollars pay for someone else's health care?[/QUOTE] because if you at some point get in the same position, someone else´s tax dollars probably will foot up your bill.... that kinda the whole idea behind the "insurance" concept...

Changleen · Mar 20, 2005

Silver said:
Plus, she's in a non-profit hospice,[/QUOTE]Ah, well, there you go - The Repubs are trying to keep her alive in a vain attempt at bankrupting the Hospice. Not for profit? Pffft!

Westy · Mar 20, 2005

ALEXIS_DH said:
because if you at some point get in the same position, someone else´s tax dollars probably will foot up your bill....

that kinda the whole idea behind the "insurance" concept...

If I end up in the same position I want someone to pull the tube, kick the plug. Luckily in my house if I don't feed them every morning, I would quickly be reduced to tightly coiled turds by the dogs.

Changleen · Mar 20, 2005

Does anyone know if this woman is even a christian?

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 20, 2005

Westy said:
If I end up in the same position I want someone to pull the tube, kick the plug. Luckily in my house if I don't feed them every morning, I would quickly be reduced to tightly coiled turds by the dogs.

well, if i was in her position, i´d rather die too... but not from starving to death, or dehidratation (which is what usually happens before you starve to death)...

am just talking about the whole "my tax dollars aint paying for that" whether is for keeping a brain dead alive, or to pay for your life saving cancer treatment...

but truly, i dont know what her opinion is, and we might never know, since i dont think there is nothing in writting... so when in doubt... dont proceed...
if the husband doesnt want to take care of her, i dont see the problem nor can blame him... but seeing her family is willing to do... i dont see why she should die (i mean die for real) in such a gruesome way.

Changleen · Mar 21, 2005

I was just watching teevee with a nurse friend who said: "Oh, I wish they'd just get over it. This stuff happens all the time. Normally we give people self medicating Morphine when they get like this. They have a clicker and they click it until the pain goes away."

Seems pretty sensible to me.

Seriously, there are thousands of people in this situation at any one time. This is a media circus for the christian right. :stosh:

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

ALEXIS_DH said:
well, if i was in her position, i´d rather die too... but not from starving to death, or dehidratation (which is what usually happens before you starve to death)...

am just talking about the whole "my tax dollars aint paying for that" whether is for keeping a brain dead alive, or to pay for your life saving cancer treatment...

but truly, i dont know what her opinion is, and we might never know, since i dont think there is nothing in writting... so when in doubt... dont proceed...
if the husband doesnt want to take care of her, i dont see the problem nor can blame him... but seeing her family is willing to do... i dont see why she should die (i mean die for real) in such a gruesome way.

If you are brain dead you will not feel the the pain from starvation. Even in situations when there are cognitive abilities use of morphine will stop the pains of hunger and in higher doeses actually prevent the body from digesting. There are a high number of people in Hospice type program who probably die this way.

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

Changleen said:
I was just watching teevee with a nurse friend who said: "Oh, I wish they'd just get over it. This stuff happens all the time. Normally we give people self medicating Morphine when they get like this. They have a clicker and they click it until the pain goes away."

Seems pretty sensible to me.

Seriously, there are thousands of people in this situation at any one time. This is a media circus for the christian right.

You can't click the morphine button when your brain can't tell what pain is or what the concept of pain is.

I Are Baboon · Mar 21, 2005

Westy said:
If I end up in the same position I want someone to pull the tube, kick the plug.

I agree with the pulling on the tube, but I want a beer tube to be its replacement. Hey, if I'm in a veg state, I might as well be drunk.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

Westy said:
If you are brain dead you will not feel the the pain from starvation. Even in situations when there are cognitive abilities use of morphine will stop the pains of hunger and in higher doeses actually prevent the body from digesting. There are a high number of people in Hospice type program who probably die this way.

that´d be a better way to die.

according to your reasoning, there would be nothing gruesome nor cruel about being clubbed to death, or being bled to death with small razor blades as long as you are unconscious or drugged up.... which kinda doesnt quite add up in my mind...

imo, she should have the right to be assisted in her suicide.
the problem is, given her condition, she cannot suicide, nor give anyone a hint on that... (as obvious as one might think she would, as long as she doesnt explicitly agree, which she never will, we cannot put words in her mouth)

since there is the uncertainty on whether she wants to die (for real), or not (even chances are minimal any person would not).... i think the wise think would just stay clear from unplugging her.
in her case, the risk (even if very small) of a mistake of interpretation of her will is way too costly in terms of her life (even as mangled as it is) against the chances of her being ok with it.

and even in the case of euthanasia, the "most humane" thing imo, would be just killing her instantly, but since that would be illegal... and the other option is starve her to death (which is gruesome regardless of her feelings)... i think just letting her be would be the least disturbing thing to do....

$tinkle · Mar 21, 2005

i wonder if vegas has odds on michael schiavo's murder before the end of the year.
his home address is well known, and if he turned down a cool million to divorce her, there're plenty of thugs who'd knock this guy off for pennies on those dollars.

not that i condone any of this, but i understand.

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Wow, you folks sure do want her to die.

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

Damn True said:
Wow, you folks sure do want her to die.

Nah, I'd rather have her live blissfully in a vegetative state for 20 years or so when a nice infected bed sore can take her out.

$tinkle · Mar 21, 2005

this story from 5 weeks ago should mix things up a bit:
Brain-Damaged Woman Talks After 20 Years

HUTCHINSON, Kan. (AP) - For 20 years, Sarah Scantlin has been mostly oblivious to the world around her - the victim of a drunken driver who struck her down as she walked to her car. Today, after a remarkable recovery, she can talk again.

Scantlin's father knows she will never fully recover, but her newfound ability to speak and her returning memories have given him his daughter back. For years, she could only blink her eyes - one blink for "no," two blinks for "yes" - to respond to questions that no one knew for sure she understood.

"I am astonished how primal communication is. It is a key element of humanity," Jim Scantlin said, blinking back tears.

Sarah Scantlin was an 18-year-old college freshman on Sept. 22, 1984, when she was hit by a drunk driver as she walked to her car after celebrating with friends at a teen club. That week, she had been hired at an upscale clothing store and won a spot on the drill team at Hutchinson Community College.

After two decades of silence, she began talking last month. Doctors are not sure why. On Saturday, Scantlin's parents hosted an open house at her nursing home to introduce her to friends, family members and reporters.

A week ago, her parents got a call from Jennifer Trammell, a licensed nurse at the Golden Plains Health Care Center. She asked Betsy Scantlin if she was sitting down, told her someone wanted to talk to her and switched the phone to speaker mode:

"Hi, Mom."

"Sarah, is that you?" her mother asked.

"Yes," came the throaty reply.

"How are you doing?"

"Fine."

"Do you need anything," her mother asked her later.

"More makeup."

"Did she just say more makeup?" the mother asked the nurse.

Scantlin still suffers constantly from the effects of the accident. She habitually crosses her arms across her chest, her fists clenched under her chin. Her legs constantly spasm and thrash. Her right foot is so twisted it is almost reversed. Her neck muscles are so constricted she cannot swallow to eat.

The driver who struck Scantlin served six months in jail for driving under the influence and leaving the scene of an accident.

Scantlin started talking in mid-January but asked staff members not to tell her parents until Valentine's Day to surprise them, Trammell said. But last week she could not wait any longer to talk to them.

"I didn't think it would ever happen, it had been so long," Betsy Scantlin said.

Scantlin's doctor, Bradley Scheel, said physicians are not sure why she suddenly began talking but believe critical pathways in the brain may have regenerated.

"It is extremely unusual to see something like this happen," Scheel said.

The breakthrough came when the nursing home's activity director, Pat Rincon, was working with Scantlin and a small group of other patients, trying to get them to speak.

Rincon had her back to Scantlin while she worked with another resident. She had just gotten that resident to reply "OK," when she suddenly heard Sarah behind her also repeat the words: "OK. OK."

Staff members brought in a speech therapist and intensified their work with Sarah. They did not want to get her parents' hopes up until they were sure Sarah would not relapse, Trammell said.

On Saturday, Scantlin seemed at times overwhelmed by the attention. Dressed in a blue warm-up suit, she spoke little, mostly answering questions in a single word.

anybody know why we haven't crushed stephen hawking's punkass yet?

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
Ah, that is different. She had a brain to regenerate. Unless you believe that consciousness resides in spinal fluid?

do deeply autistic, or the severely retarded people comply with your "consciousness" requirement?

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
They sure do.

Does N8?

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
I doubt it. I don't think he could pass a Turing test...

I still think he is just a virus on RM server put there to drive hits to certain news sites.

$tinkle · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
I doubt it. I don't think he could pass a Turing test...

consistently impure thoughts are a sign of failure to ever win the loebner prize.

in 10 days you can submit your n8 project for the award.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
They sure do.

but they arent as self-functioning as this schiavo lady???? how is "consicousness" defined???

why cant we stop feeding the autistic and let them starve to death in their wheelchairs? :think:

how is this lady different from the deeply autistic?? both have no hope of gaining "cognitive" functions...

RhinofromWA · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
Doesn't matter. Her mother is.

Anyone else notice Bush took a few days to respond to the biggest natural disaster in a while, but he cut his holiday short for this?

Of course, stuff like this gets the base moving...

If by quick action you mean 15 years then you are right.

She is dead ans has been dead for 15 years. She did not want to live in a veg state and relay ed that info to multiple people before she was in this situation.

Pull the plug (so to speak)

narlus · Mar 21, 2005

Westy said:
Nah, I'd rather have her live blissfully in a vegetative state for 20 years or so when a nice infected bed sore can take her out.

nice one. a few corkers from you in this thread. :thumb:

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

Silver said:
The deeply autistic are not a good comparison for Mrs. Schiavo.

Have you seen the CT scan that was done of her brain?

nope, but since i read somewhere she can breath on her own, i assume at least that the autonomous (i dont remember the actual part) part of the brain is in OK condition. so basically her only need is the feeding tube... which is not that much different from people so dependant that need to be fed...

consciousness as such accordind to wikipedia
Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to one's environment; this contrasts with being asleep or being in a coma.
is not quite acomplished by mrs schiavo, and neither by the deeply autistic with say an IQ of 55...

RhinofromWA · Mar 21, 2005

ALEXIS_DH said:
nope, but since i read somewhere she can breath on her own, i assume at least that the autonomous (i dont remember the actual part) part of the brain is in OK condition. so basically her only need is the feeding tube... which is not that much different from people so dependant that need to be fed...

Terry S has less cognative ability than a sea slug.

She is all nerve endings. You blow in her eyes and she blinks.

ALEXIS_DH · Mar 21, 2005

RhinofromWA said:
Terry S has less cognative ability than a sea slug.

She is all nerve endings. You blow in her eyes and she blinks.

i know.. but in the same way, the autistic sister of a very good friend of mine, stays in bed 24 hours a day, and if you blow her eyes she blinks too, plus she makes funky noises all day and has to be fed by a nurse too... yet her cognitive ability is also zero....

so it seems to me, that she is as cognitive impaired as Schiavo, plus, she also has the autonomous part of the brain working fine, since she breaths and all..

yet somehow, she and terry schiavo are in different classifications... :think:

$tinkle · Mar 21, 2005

why doesn't michael just plant some dope on her then narc her out? then he could collect double once she died, as long as it turned like this guy

Westy · Mar 21, 2005

ALEXIS_DH said:
i know.. but in the same way, the autistic sister of a very good friend of mine, stays in bed 24 hours a day, and if you blow her eyes she blinks too, plus she makes funky noises all day and has to be fed by a nurse too... yet her cognitive ability is also zero....

so it seems to me, that she is as cognitive impaired as Schiavo, plus, she also has the autonomous part of the brain working fine, since she breaths and all..

yet somehow, she and terry schiavo are in different classifications...

There is a difference here, someone more knowledgeable could go over medical reasons. But mainly Schiavo was once a happy healthy individual and as I understand it stated that she did not want to be on life support if she fell into such a situation. Unforrunately she did not legally document such things.

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

Her "husband" (a term I use with hesitation) says she didn't want to be on life support. This is the same guy that is thought to be the person who repeatedly beat her. Seems to me that his primary motivation here is with himself. Though super super remote, if there is any recovery there is a chance she could implicate him. In which case he's out her life insurance $$ and could wind up in the pokey as well.
BTW, wondering why more of you are throwing this up as a reason for stem cell research. But I digress.
In the videos I have seen she smiles when spoken to and even puckers when kissed. That doesn't sound like vegitative. It's jacked up, and I wouldn't want to live like that. But it sure as hell isn't for me to decide that for someone else.

Maybe this is what was meant by "cradle to grave". Ensuring the right of people to kill others from cradle to grave. We have infanticide on one end, and now homicide.........sad and pathetic.

Damn True · Mar 21, 2005

RhinofromWA said:
Terry S has less cognative ability than a sea slug.

She is all nerve endings. You blow in her eyes and she blinks.

So kill her.

RhinofromWA · Mar 21, 2005

Damn True said:
Her "husband" (a term I use with hesitation) says she didn't want to be on life support. This is the same guy that is thought to be the person who repeatedly beat her. Seems to me that his primary motivation here is with himself. Though super super remote, if there is any recovery there is a chance she could implicate him. In which case he's out her life insurance $$ and could wind up in the pokey as well.
BTW, wondering why more of you are throwing this up as a reason for stem cell research. But I digress.
In the videos I have seen she smiles when spoken to and even puckers when kissed. That doesn't sound like vegitative. It's jacked up, and I wouldn't want to live like that. But it sure as hell isn't for me to decide that for someone else.

Maybe this is what was meant by "cradle to grave". Ensuring the right of people to kill others from cradle to grave. We have infanticide on one end, and now homicide.........sad and pathetic.

Well as far as the abuse I wonder why we haven't heard more about that....if it is true at all. Seems like that would be a GREAT angle to report this from....yet no one goes for it. :think:

Maybe it is just crap from Terrys parents side trying to sway public opinion?

As for the video during a cable news station debate on it it was reported that the small bits of video you did see is the culmination of something like 6 hours of video. 6hrs of video for 15 seconds of what could appear to be "non-veg'd" but is more likely the twitches of a brain dead husk of what used to be a living being.

She has been dead for 15 years....let her go.

RhinofromWA · Mar 21, 2005

Damn True said:
So kill her.

She is already dead.

$tinkle · Mar 21, 2005

you know who's curiously silent on this topic?
women.

women who make bold stands for their medical rights.
we've got laws all over this poor woman's body.

Terry Schiavo again...

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