Done with my Zee brakeset.. whats next?
- Thread starter TrumbullHucker
- Start date
Did you have to trim the Saint pads to get them I there, or are they plug and play?
I'm very happy with my RORs on my 7" enduro/park bike in every respect other than outright power, where they're only okay. My hardtail needs brakes, and I'm starting to get tempted to move the Formulas over and bite the bullet on the Trickstuffs. It seems like they're pretty much the only thing out there that I trust to be more reliable and markedly more powerful than the RORs.
You can't buy them easily, the actual wait went from 3 months to 6 months last I checked.
If you can get them I know you'll appreciate them, they demolish everything else on the market.
Saint pads need a tiny trim but I found if you're careful you can keep 100% of the pad material intact.
There are other decent pad options also.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions because honestly I'm tired of the recent stream of muppets who seem to think I'm paid to justify my self-funded purchases to them (and support them keeping their cheap junk simultaneously).
If you can get them I know you'll appreciate them, they demolish everything else on the market.
Saint pads need a tiny trim but I found if you're careful you can keep 100% of the pad material intact.
There are other decent pad options also.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions because honestly I'm tired of the recent stream of muppets who seem to think I'm paid to justify my self-funded purchases to them (and support them keeping their cheap junk simultaneously).
@HAB I tried to get a set around March and did contact Trickstuff as well as one of the biggest German shops selling them. As Udi pointed out already, lead time is up to at least 6 months. German car manufacturers having a buzz atm is the reason, all decent workshops have plenty of business to do. Small funny sporty things are of a somewhat lower priority.
That's why I ended up buying RORs.
That's why I ended up buying RORs.
@HAB I was going to suggest the V4 as an alternative (and I do recommend them), but the important catch worth noting (especially for an ROR owner) is the V4 has much longer dead-throw than the ROR, and the rear throw does grow longer over a hard season like many other brakes. They're better than Shimano/SRAM and the throw does hold more consistently (+ does not change short-term, i.e. during riding), but IMO it's less than perfect, and I think it's good to know what you're up for before spending the money. I would still recommend them if you need more braking force.
Compared to the ROR they're also heavier (+100g per end in stock guise), however they drop ~35g an end by switching to plastic hoses, making the V4/plastic lighter than the Saint and MT7. I think it's a shame Hope don't offer that as a factory option, hopefully they do in future. The stock braided line is handy on the rear though as it helps keep the throw a bit shorter / sharper, but probably overkill for you.
I know you bought the ROR on my recommendation last time (and my complaints department hasn't heard back from you? I did change the number to be safe) so I can say without reservation that if you can get your hands on the Direttissima and are able to fund them, they are worth every extra dollar over every competing brake, certainly including the V4. I mean this in a very direct sense, where the discerning eye will spot numerous areas where the extra cost has been utilised and gifted back to the purchaser.
The reason for the throw difference is piston rollback, both Formula and Trickstuff keep these numbers very tight (particularly compared to Hope and Shimano) which is why they have shorter throw distances (obviously a little less clearance + trickier alignment, which is well worth it for shorter throw in my book). If that's something you care about I would also consider waiting for the Cura4 instead - however the catch there is - Formula stopped caring about weight with the Cura (unlike the ridiculously weight-optimised ROR) so it may end up being a heavier brake than the V4 / plastic combo. I also feel the Tech3 lever is ergonomically superior to the Cura lever. The Trickstuff again (no surprise) leaves everything in the dust.
So basically it's a balancing act, of weight, throw, peak force, and in this case, cost and wait times also.
Hopefully that's everything you need to know though, to not have any post-purchase surprises.
Compared to the ROR they're also heavier (+100g per end in stock guise), however they drop ~35g an end by switching to plastic hoses, making the V4/plastic lighter than the Saint and MT7. I think it's a shame Hope don't offer that as a factory option, hopefully they do in future. The stock braided line is handy on the rear though as it helps keep the throw a bit shorter / sharper, but probably overkill for you.
I know you bought the ROR on my recommendation last time (and my complaints department hasn't heard back from you? I did change the number to be safe) so I can say without reservation that if you can get your hands on the Direttissima and are able to fund them, they are worth every extra dollar over every competing brake, certainly including the V4. I mean this in a very direct sense, where the discerning eye will spot numerous areas where the extra cost has been utilised and gifted back to the purchaser.
The reason for the throw difference is piston rollback, both Formula and Trickstuff keep these numbers very tight (particularly compared to Hope and Shimano) which is why they have shorter throw distances (obviously a little less clearance + trickier alignment, which is well worth it for shorter throw in my book). If that's something you care about I would also consider waiting for the Cura4 instead - however the catch there is - Formula stopped caring about weight with the Cura (unlike the ridiculously weight-optimised ROR) so it may end up being a heavier brake than the V4 / plastic combo. I also feel the Tech3 lever is ergonomically superior to the Cura lever. The Trickstuff again (no surprise) leaves everything in the dust.
So basically it's a balancing act, of weight, throw, peak force, and in this case, cost and wait times also.
Hopefully that's everything you need to know though, to not have any post-purchase surprises.
FYI, these are the Direttissima sets that bike24 currently has on order. It appears they haven't reordered any frontbrakes yet, as all the front brakes have the updated, longer delivery time. There is no use calling them or Trickstuff directly to figure out when they will actually get them, I've tried both numerous times and i couldn't get a reliable answer from either party. So if you really want one you would need to place a speculative order or just check their website daily.
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I'm just getting caught up on this thread ... are we talking about $900+ brakesets now? 
I don’t think it’s fair to compare Trickstuff to mass produced brakes, but yes, I’d gladly pay 600+ for a consistently working set of brakes.I'm just getting caught up on this thread ... are we talking about $900+ brakesets now?
Yeah, I like the RORs, and wouldn't be bothering to change them if I didn't need to put some new brakes on my hardtail before the Shimanos on there at present kill me. I figured if I was buying a pair of brakes I might as well look into an upgrade for the squishy bike and move the RORs to the hardtail, because as I mentioned, power and heat management on them are only pretty good. I've definitely cooked them and glazed pads badly in bike park use.
I can pay $800 for a set of brakes, though I'm not exactly sure that I want to. If they were available now, that would make it easier.
I can pay $800 for a set of brakes, though I'm not exactly sure that I want to. If they were available now, that would make it easier.
Perfection comes at a price.I'm just getting caught up on this thread ... are we talking about $900+ brakesets now?
I think most people can ignore that post though, it was just for HAB's benefit since I know he would drop the cash without whinging about it. Most people want to buy half-price parts and then wonder why they half-work.
Most people want to buy full-price brakes and then whinge that they half-work. Brakes are bullshit expensive for MTBs given how poorly they function.Most people want to buy half-price parts and then wonder why they half-work.
I love the trickstuffs, but that statement is like saying "oh your brand new Toyota wheels fell off? Thats what you get for not buying Ferrari"
Seriously. I'd like to think I'm pretty fast, but I'm certainly no WC caliber rider, and I only weigh 160lbs, and still run 26s. I shouldn't need top of the line brakes to not worry about them failing or overheating.
Yeah when there's only one manufacturer that ticks all the boxes and those brakes cost $1000AUD and are only available with a lead time of 6 months then something sucks.
FWIW, i think the Hope is relatively decent except for high lever travel. The bite-point wander, leaking and failures on some of the other brakes on the market are frightening though. The fact that a goddamn brake failure isn't an instant fail for any bike review shows just how complacent people/reviewers have gotten with mediocre performance in this component market.
I hear you on the Hope, but if I'm going to spend 2/3 the cost of the Trickstuff on those, I'd probably rather pony up for the better option at that point. This obviously presumes that said better option is available, which by the sound of things may not be the case.
How comes we have to deal with crappy disc brakes on a daily basis? Forks, shocks, stems, seatposts, rims -hell, even v-brakes- are recalled en masse if the manufacturer admits a potential failure. Yet we have to put up with stuck or leaky calliper pistons, variable bite point levers, poor heat management and NOBODY in the fucking media has the balls to stand up and write a fucking piece about it. The closest one I read was in NSMB, when they tangentially mentioned the bite point issues with XTs.
For fucks sake, even McGarry ate a good one when his Saints left him in the middle of a helluva landing. And now we are being told we have to pay the price of a decent hardtail to get rid of that possibility.
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Chill dude. I hear the new version has all those problems sorted. For sure.
You can buy them in about 2 weeks, bro.
Lemme tell ya how diz endz bro: Trickstuff sets the bar so high in terms of price, power and reliability it enables all the big players to charge a premium for a brakeset which basically works as intended 90% of the time.
Seriously, don't we have a competent lawyer among the valuable user roster here who could lead a class action and get those fuckers to care about the safety of their customers?
Yeah if it was that close I would too. But Hope V4s are about $508 AUD (Merlin) F&R versus $1209 AUD (bike24) for the Trickstuffs. Not sure if you guys get a better deal or whatever, but over here I can get a set of Hopes front and rear for less than the front Trickstuff and have enough left over for spare pads and a rotor.
I'd prefer my Hopes to have shorter throw and better bite, but I'm not paying $700 extra for that privilege. The ultra-light construction of the Trickstuff lever and its retention bolt also make me nervous given how rough I am on my gear and my inability to avoid trees.
*edit* Trickstuffs are actually $1013 AUD if you set the country to Australia. Bargain. I take it all back, they're a steal.
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There is a new machined 7075 alloy clamp available.
Can be ordered directly from Trickstuff.
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I have short trump like fingers. Which brakes have the shortest throw and can be close to the bar without being out of cam?
My new Curas have a very short throw and are adjusted pretty close to the bar for my man-hands.
Maybe Hope Trials?
Good to hear. Do you have the new 4 piston? I've been hoping they would work.
No the 2 piston. The 4 won't be out until this Fall.
To be fair, Mike Kazimer bitches about Shimano XTs in practically every bike review he does.
Obviously he gets absolutely murdered for it in the comments, but that's Pinkbike for you.
Nah, they're actually not.
This sums it up - I consider you a pretty cluey dude, probably in the 99th percentile of MTB riders when it comes to appreciating the technical aspects, and yet even you think most brakes are overpriced. Check out a motorbike brake lever, or a brake on a real car next time you have access to one - pull off a brake on a car and hold it in your hand.
That stuff is all stupidly heavy compared to even "cheap" or "low-end" MTB brakes, so it's actually not hard to make it strong and reliable. Motorbikes have huge rotors (given relatively small wheel ODs also), sometimes two at the front, and cars have the benefit of a vacuum booster. Sure they're stopping heavier vehicles, but they essentially have no ceiling on brake mass!
The MTB industry these days keeps making wheel diameters bigger (cutting brake force proportionally), and yet most riders still don't want to put bigger rotors on their bikes, nor do they want to pay more for their brakes. For strength : weight ratios, MTB is much closer to the league of F1 than most cars/motos (which people hold as standards for cost and reliability). MTB has much smaller sales volumes too, and while that's slowly changing, we're still not in the same ballpark.
It's very difficult to get more peak force out of an MTB brake if you aren't willing to add rotor mass, and to do it without increasing throw requires either aggressive variable leverage linkages in the lever (which add mass also), or using very tight clearances and thus very tight tolerances to make sure things still work correctly - which means expensive materials and expensive manufacturing.
You bought Hope brakes for all of your bikes. They cost 1.5-2x as much as Shimano/SRAM brakes at realistic street prices, why did you do that? Because the money goes somewhere. Hold them side by side in your hands, pull them apart and inspect the pistons and cylinder bores, at every step you will see where your money went. You already know this, you've owned both.
Trickstuffs cost 1.5-2x as much as Hopes. Do the same comparison, and the differences are just as polarising.
No one is forcing you to.
You are the exact type of person I was referring to with regards to whinging about something you weren't going to buy anyway. FYI at least 3-4 people on here have PM'd me asking about those brakes, with wallets open, trying to find a solution to their braking woes after trying most brakes on the market. At least two of them have already owned V4s.
You know I went out of my way to get those brakes, but I had the best chairlift season of my life when it comes to brakes (thanks go to you and Sandro). It's the first season EVER I've brought my bleed kit home unused. I photographed the lever throws of every rear brake lever in the house, from memory I showed you how every other brake deteriorated over the season (including the V4: rear lever engaging much closer to bar than front). To have a season completely free of brake hassle, to me was priceless.
I'm not saying this justifies manufacturers selling cheaper brakes that fail and become unsafe, but I can guarantee that none of these manufacturers (good or bad) care about you or anyone else whinging about this stuff. You were bitching about the cost of Trickstuffs before even trying them, this tells me that whether they were available or not, you weren't going to buy them anyway. FYI I also crashed mine OTB multiple times over the summer, the lever clamps held up fine. Looks like if you want to spend more money on the "imaginary brakes you weren't going to buy anyway", Flo33 has listed an option.
Anyway I do hope more reliable and reasonably priced brake options show up.
However if anyone actually wants the grand trifecta of lightweight / high peak force / high reliability, they should know that it's never going to come cheap.
If you want to cry about something - do it about every product which falls short of fixing all the issues.
Not the one which actually offers a solution.
I'm going to dig into what you said @Udi for a couple of reasons: First, my two previous posts complaining about the quality of the brakes made by two main contenders in the field (SRAM and Shimano) do address Trickstuff's products, but just to set the bar: They make a product which works, at a reduced production scale, and were able to maintain the quality so far. That all comes to a price, and I understand it. I'm more worried about a safety device in our bikes which *should* work as intended 99% of the time, and not depend on user inspection prior to/during every ride to avoid dangerous situations.
As you said, the moto and automotive industries have reliable brakesets at the cost of added weight/mass. Well, I for one wouldn't matter adding weight if it allows us to have reliable and affordable brakes. I get you dig lightweight components and place that attribute high on your wishlist when shopping for new stuff, and I'm sincerely happy you -along many other Direttissima users- have found a brakeset which is reliable, light and powerful. What I'm saying is I think we should have alternatives if some of us don't need to push the envelope when talking about weight or pure power, but focus on reliability. I've stayed on Formula brakes for that very reason, but as you accurately pointed out in several occasions, they were designed with 26-inch bikes in mind and lack power when paired to bigger wheels. I'll probably jump to the new 4-pot Curas when they become available, but until then my R0s will have to do.
Here is to hoping Trickstuff sends a shock wave across the disk brake manufacturers and forces them to rethink their designs and QC processes. Because today, we are forced to pay way more for what the other brands offer for every penny they charge for their product.
As you said, the moto and automotive industries have reliable brakesets at the cost of added weight/mass. Well, I for one wouldn't matter adding weight if it allows us to have reliable and affordable brakes. I get you dig lightweight components and place that attribute high on your wishlist when shopping for new stuff, and I'm sincerely happy you -along many other Direttissima users- have found a brakeset which is reliable, light and powerful. What I'm saying is I think we should have alternatives if some of us don't need to push the envelope when talking about weight or pure power, but focus on reliability. I've stayed on Formula brakes for that very reason, but as you accurately pointed out in several occasions, they were designed with 26-inch bikes in mind and lack power when paired to bigger wheels. I'll probably jump to the new 4-pot Curas when they become available, but until then my R0s will have to do.
Here is to hoping Trickstuff sends a shock wave across the disk brake manufacturers and forces them to rethink their designs and QC processes. Because today, we are forced to pay way more for what the other brands offer for every penny they charge for their product.
With the bite point adjustment of the hope V4, can one achieve a lever throw of less than 1 cm?
I agree.
Instead, we have brakes from Shimano which randomly come to the bar + leak, SRAM where the pistons seize, Formula which have short throws but don't have enough braking force to stop large wheels, Magura with their flimsy plastic lever bodies, Hope which are more consistent but lack in peak force and have throws too long.
I think Formula seem to have clued up onto your line of thinking, and have actually simultaneously increased weights and decreased prices to try and offer what you describe - I hope they're successful with the Cura4. Sufficient peak force remains to be seen, even there.
My point was though, we're asking a lot more of a brake than other industries, so it's fair that they're not cheap - if they are expected to actually work within the parameters we've set. When smart people bitch about great brakes being too expensive, we are sending out the signal that mfgs should keep building and selling us junk.
Exactly!
I'm just happy to see Trickstuff systematically obliterate the problems one-by-one.
It shows that it's actually possible, which is a good starting point for everyone else.
No, the BPC on the V4 is dead weight, just like every other brake with that feature. All it does is make the throw even longer, everyone I know with them sets it to "shortest" and leaves it there.
There is no way that the throw on the V4 can be consistently less than 1cm at the tip of the lever.
That said, they'll still piss all over your Guide / Code rubbish, overall.
ROR.
Peak force isn't particularly high though.
careful there, sparky.
ROR.
Peak force isn't particularly high though.[/QUOTE]
Would peak force still be better than st levers on saints out of cam?
Would the 4 piston coming out have a higher force?
Peak force isn't particularly high though.[/QUOTE]
Would peak force still be better than st levers on saints out of cam?
Would the 4 piston coming out have a higher force?
Nope.
Dear god man. Don't get your knickers in a knot. I'm already admitting that the Trickstuffs are clearly the best brake on the market. I'm just annoyed they cost so bloody much and that we've gotten to the point where a set of brakes is somehow fine to cost more than a top of the line shock.
I was merely replying to the statement that the Hopes were 2/3rds of the price of the Trickstuffs. I didn't mean to offend anyone who thinks paying more than double the cost of the nearest alternative is fine. The trickstuffs are incredibly well made and address the power deficit issues, lever throw and your precious weight, while maintaining consistency over long runs.
But because they do all these things, and no one else can get their shit together, they're price gouging the crap out of them and getting away with it. If you think that cost is actually justified by the end product - thats great. I'm just frustrated that Shimano, SRAM, Formula and Hope haven't bought a set - stripped it down and mass produced something even in the ballpark yet.
When smart people seem to think that over a thousand dollars a set is the correct price to pay for a functional and safe brake, we're not addressing the issue. MTB brakes need a class action against one or two manufacturers to prompt them to actually fix their shit. Brakes where the bite point is a lucky dip, and brakes where the master pistons seize in the bore locking the brake on are both serious safety issues. The current best advice available is to avoid brakes that are specced on roughly 99.9999% of all OEM sale bikes and then spend more than a third of the total cost of a normal trail bike on getting a safe set of stoppers. And that situation sucks.
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