the alternative personal transportation thread

The Joker said:

As much as I hate to acknowledge agreeing with Toshi on this, I would definitely get an electric for my normal commuting at this point. The one caveot being that the charging station at my home be synced with my overall electrical usage, so that I don't hit peak time usage. There aren't a lot of good smart systems that don't require a whole set of new appliances though.

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Are you on peak/off-peak pricing? I'm just on a straight up flat rate here... a very expensive flat rate. Gah. Long Island Power: 21 cents/kWh. It's about as cheap to drive our Prius as a Leaf would be per mile because of this, car payment for a new vehicle vs. our cheap-ass $11.9k CPO ride entirely aside.

Assuming you do have variable rate charging then the Leaf has you covered at least with Carwings, which lets one start and stop (and schedule) charging via one's smartphone. An extra perk is the ability to dial in an interior temperature from the phone prior to hopping in the car, while it's still tethered by its umbilicus to the charger. I imagine GM has something akin to this for the Volt.

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/carwingsRange/index#/leaf-electric-car/carwingsRange/index

TheMontashu said:

it's .40 cents where I live depending on how much you use

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Post up the tariff chart. I'm almost certain that your rates start much lower (.10-.15/kWh) and ramp up to 0.40 only for really, really high use.

I thought you were going to publish the latest soy shots of the VW XL1, or whatever it's called... I didn't do so because it's both still vaporware, and if it ever comes to fruition, will likely be utter crap (like that Fisker above).

T Boone Pickens should have bought more lobbyists...

http://onlocation.consumerreports.org/2012_new_york_auto_show/Infiniti_LE_Concept.html

What is it? A longer version of the all-electric Nissan Leaf with a shorter name, the LE applies the electric-car platform to an upscale sedan. The body is sized similarly with the Infiniti G, and it has a slippery drag coefficient of 0.25.

It uses the same 24-kWh lithium-ion battery pack as in the Leaf, in conjunction with a standard 50-kW quick-charge port (based on the Japanese ChaDeMo standard).

CR’s take: The LE indicates how serious Infiniti’s parent-company Nissan is about electric cars. While it is a concept, Nissan said it plans to have such a car in showrooms in “near similar” form within two years.

When will it be available? Spring 2014.

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One feature not mentioned in the blurb above is that this concept features an inductive charging mat (visible underneath the rear bumper in the rear 3/4 shot), over which the car positions itself automatically using self-parking technology. I gleaned that bit from the Infiniti promo video itself.






My own take on it is that it's not going to save the world, similar to the Prius, yet may present a nice slightly-lower-total-impact choice for consumers who want a taste of luxury (including a near-silent drivetrain!) along with their granola. That class of consumer may well include my wife, and she probably will be looking for a car around the time this one or its successor is actually released in 2014.

1) This thread is positively littered with vaporware and stillborn (or outright fraudulent) products from failed companies. I collated all the abortions and broken promises over in a thread on endless-sphere.com: Vaporware and failed EV companies. As one might gather from having followed this thread over the years, there are more false promises than ones upheld.

2) One of the few companies that have come through with their promised vehicles is Nissan and their Leaf. My wife and I got to ride in one at the NY Auto Show this past weekend--the culmination of a then-fading dream after the multiple aborted attempts last summer on the Drive Electric tour. Both of us actually really liked it, with my wife hopping out of the passenger seat saying "I want a Leaf!"

me said:

Top 3 vehicles that impressed or amused me more than I'd anticipated:

- Subaru BRZ Limited
- Nissan Leaf
- Lexus GS 450h

...

Why did these vehicles make my lists of the top 3 that impressed and disappointed me? I'm glad you asked:

Nissan Leaf: I'd ogled many a Leaf before but hadn't had a chance to sample its interior accommodations firsthand, or ride in one. Although small on paper, the car felt open and roomy. Build quality seemed very solid down to the thunk of the doors, and materials above average. Riding in it--there was no option to drive ourselves, of course--was an exercise in powertrain silence, much like our Prius at low speeds, only without a coarse engine kicking in ever. From the back seat, low speed torque seemed more than adequate, akin to the Volt that I test drove last year. It's nice having max torque at 0 rpm, eh? Both my wife and I emerged from the Leaf much more psyched about it than we had been before.

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Well, I thought about the logistics when we got home that evening, and I think it'll be finally time to pull the (electric) trigger when we move back to Seattle in a mere 15 months.



All of the stars seem to be in alignment: we'll be relatively flush thanks to our cheap living arrangements (MIL's house) and my own (pending) lack of a car; Seattle City Light rates are downright cheap and can be entirely offset with renewable energy for just $12 more per month; The EV Project gives away chargers to Seattle metro residents in exchange for usage information; and there are 74 EV charging stations in the Seattle metro area as of today, with more surely to come by next summer.

A blue Leaf with the 6.6 kW onboard charger and leather (both to be options on the 2013 model) would do it...



There is the minor hitch that I don't know where we'll be after 2014--my fellowship in Seattle is but a year long and I'll be scrounging for a job offer during that time. I'm pretty sure that wherever we'll live will have electric service, though, and the house has a full-size dryer then it has 240V service... Sure, we'll probably take a bath on charger installation costs in a rental place at some point down the line, but this wouldn't be about penny-pinching or saving the world, but rather about indulging our inner geeks.

CBJ said:

How has your Prius worked out?

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No issues, aside from a sometimes-recalcitrant left sided HID bulb that needs the headlight switch turned on twice maybe one 1 of every 20 times in order to get it to light up. Still getting great gas mileage: 39-45 in the city typically, 42-55 on the highway depending on weather, tires, terrain, etc. It swallows two bikes with the front wheels off and is wonderfully quiet when driven sedately.

Things I'd change about it: a touch more rear headroom. Less engine noise when merging (it's really quiet otherwise, and especially at stoplights with the engine stopped completely). Longer lower seat cushion, and more adjustments for the front seats in general. Telescoping steering column. Oddly enough, its speed and softly tuned suspension don't bother me that much. Go figure.

I must note I have an aunt and uncle who each have lower-trim Prii, with grey on black interiors, that I don't nearly as much. Our top-of-the-line Prius's leather steering wheel, cream colored leather seats, built in navi, HIDs, tint, and even the stupid auto dimming Homelink mirror make a big difference perceptually. Of course, it also helps that ours is kept really clean (thanks to me) while both of theirs were absolutely filthy before I gave them a vacuum. (Now theirs are only moderately filthy. I don't think they vacuumed out the interior since they bought them new in 2005 and 2006, respectively!)

C.P. said:

Nicely done. We are in the midst of the same kind of time frame to replace a car (Subaru) and the Leaf is at the top of our list ATM. This will be our families primary car for day-to-day driving, primarily my wife. A photovoltaic system for our home will follow in '14. CANT WAIT.

CP

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Nice! I'm envious on the prospect of getting a solar system. While we should be able to jump right in and get the car as soon as we get to Seattle (July 2013) it won't be until 2016 or so until we actually own a house. I've vowed to not buy a house until I've been at a practice for two solid years, and adding solar to a short term rental house would be pissing away money. In the meantime, Seattle's Green Up! program will be nearly as good.

syadasti said:

Focus Electric Quick Spin Review:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/04/24/2012-ford-focus-electric-quick-spin-review/

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I like the additional rear seat room, as compared to the Leaf. I don't like the styling, rising beltline/small rear window, the dash, or that profits from it would go to paying Mullaly's and the Ford board's inflated corporate salaries and pensions. (Renault-Nissan is better in this regard although Ghosn makes a big chunk of money. The pure-Japanese companies such as Honda and Toyota have much less greedy executives iirc.)

slyfink said:

The back of her hatch was kissing the back of the front seats. Luckily, their kids weren't in the cars. But that got my wife thinking that maybe our car isn't the safest for our little monkey. So something higher and bulkier appears to be in my future. I've always hated the thought and notion of those mini-SUVs, with a roof box we have plenty of cargo space. But the sight of their car and what happened to the baby seats won't be forgotten any time soon.

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dante said:

Before ditching the fully-paid-off Mazda3, I'd do some research to ensure that whatever you're buying is at least safer than your current car.

I'm also not sure whether those CUVs are really that much more tough/rugged than a hatchback of the same size. Maybe Bizutch might have some additional information being in the insurance industry?

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This thread (shikataganai == Toshi) of mine over on NASIOC is very relevant to your interests:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195556

With regard to the CX-5, I wasn't impressed at all with its interior layout or quality at the recent auto show. Your impressions may well vary, and the drivetrain itself has been garnering praise far and wide.

slyfink said:

if those cross-over SUVs are getting lighter, are they still (slightly) safer?

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Size and weight both help. With regard to size, see RMI's page . They have more buried in their site on how a lightweight-but-big car could be pretty safe.

The CX-5 itself is neither tiny nor flyweight. 3300 lb estimated curb weight. It's an IIHS Top Safety Pick, for what that's worth. I add in the "fwiw" disclaimer because IIHS tests vehicles vs. fixed objects, not vehicles vs. larger vehicles…

slyfink said:

is traction control really that helpful?

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Traction control can be replicated with a light foot. Stability control, on the other hand, can brake individual wheels and otherwise do things that you simply can't do with two (or three) pedals and a steering wheel alone. I think it's a great thing to have on a road-going car.

slyfink said:

I'd like safety stats for children killed or injured while in child seats in the back seat. Does that exist?

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I'd be surprised if such granular data were available. There were "only" 1314 child traffic accident fatalities in 2009, for instance , so each individual car model probably only accounts for several dozen. I can't see there being enough power in there to draw any conclusions, especially since there are huge confounding factors. Namely, drunk parents, unbelted parents, unbelted kids, and incorrect choice or use of child seats all have a large effect.

slyfink said:

Are there any stats on the incidence of the types of impacts and which ones are most "injurious" (if that's even a word?)

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http://www.ancap.com.au/faqs

ANCAP said:

Severe rear collisions are relatively rare and usually involve being struck by a much larger vehicle. Frontal crashes and severe side impacts account for most car occupant fatalities.

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Step aside, Nissan Leaf: A usurper has taken your place in my oft-changed vehicular plans, just as I predicted a month ago. May I present the 2013 Toyota RAV4 EV, just introduced formally by Toyota at EVS26.









Key stats:

- 38.3" rear legroom, assuming 2012 dimensions, which is ample for rear-facing child seats
- 41.8 kWh of Tesla lithium-ion batteries powering a similarly Tesla-sourced 115 kW electric motor, good for 0-60 in 7 seconds and 100 miles of range
- 9.6 kW Level 2 charger, which implies that charging from empty will take 4.5 hours
- Available for outright sale (!) to the public in "late summer 2012", assuming one lives in Sacramento, Bay Area, LA, or San Diego
- 2600 to be built over a 3 year run, which would more than double Tesla's cumulative car output

One can clearly see that it's simply much larger in every measure than the 31.1" legroom, 24 kWh battery, 80 kW motor, 3.3/6.6 kW charger Leaf. There is a price for this largeness, of course, and that'd be a 4100 lb curb weight, a $49.8k price tag before applicable tax credits, and higher per-mile energy consumption.

The upside is that $49.8k is "only" $12k more than the price of a Leaf SL (and a hell of a lot cheaper than the luxo-barge gas SUVs that I'd been salivating over just a few months ago). The other huge upside is that Toyota named a price at all, indicating that this is not going to be a lease-only model. This in turn implies continued factory support at least at some level, as opposed to prior lease-only EVs' fate of being relegated to the crusher at the end of the lease term.

If I'm lucky then Toyota will expand sales to the Seattle metro region by the time my wife and I move out there (summer 2013). If not, then we will fly down to Cali, buy one in the Bay Area, and truck it back home, Consumer Reports-style. It will happen--or some subsequent version of my ever-evolving plans will, at least…

Brammo Empulse R priced at $19k.

Key specs:

- $19k price if you didn't read that last sentence . Yikes.
- 54 hp motor, unclear if AC or DC, liquid cooled, air cooled, etc.
- 10.2 kWh of lithium
- 6 speed gearbox (!)
- 120 mile range in the city, 56 miles on the highway

I find it interesting that the highway range is so much shorter than that in the city. Goes to show that the aerodynamics of an unfaired motorcycle (and even a faired one) are pretty ****ty.

If one lives in California then state and Federal tax incentives bring the effective price down to ~$15,850. Oregon residents--I'm looking at you, jimmydean!--get more from the state in direct incentives but have no state sales tax to deduct, so the math comes out to about the same, +/- a few hundred $. Washington residents just get a sales tax exemption, with no direct state incentives, so would only benefit from the 10% Federal tax credit (courtesy of the ARRA): $17,100.

That's expensive any way you cut it.

Math time, or "a long post in which the purchase price + 'fuel' price is considered for a RAV4 EV and an Empulse R."

Shared assumptions for both cases:

- Average gas price over the next 6 years of $4 in today's dollars, which I personally feel is very conservative.
- Average electricity price of $0.10/kWh, also conservative and higher than the current Seattle City Light rates that range between 4.7 and 9.8 cents/kWh, iirc.
- Charger efficiency of 90%, which is more than fair unless one's talking inductive charging

RAV4 EV case-specific assumptions:

- 12k miles/year, even though that might be practically challenging to achieve in the EV due to the range.
- V6 4WD RAV4 Limited with navi/Entune as the relatively feature- and performance-matched gas contender, which gets 22 mpg combined and costs $29.9k before destination as described
- Single trim EV model, which costs $49.8k before destination and uses about 0.440 kWh/mile (based off of published Leaf efficiency * scaling factor of 1.2 for weight)
- An EV buyer with an adjusted gross income sufficient to qualify for the full $7,500 Federal tax credit ($55k for a married couple filing jointly), and who lives in Seattle, where EVs are exempt from the 9.1% (iirc) sales/use tax on new vehicles and EVSE is provided free by The EV Project. California's incentives are even more friendly, of course.

Motorcycle case-specific assumptions:

- 4k miles/year, as that's about how much I have personally averaged on two wheels over the last 4 years
- Triumph Street Triple R as the gas motorcycle for comparison purposes, since it's a relatively quick naked standard with some fancy trim bits and adjustable suspension, as is the Empulse R. MSRP $9,599.
- Empulse R MSRP of $18,995, with an out the door price in Washington State of $17,095 per the 10% tax credit under the auspices of the ARRA. I don't imagine anyone buying a new bike of any sort doesn't have a high enough AGI to qualify for a full $1,900 tax credit.
- Empulse R energy use of 0.128 kWh/mi, which splits the highway/city figures from Brammo's PR
- Street Triple mpg of 40

General gas price formula: A miles x B years * $C/gal / D mpg
General electricity price formula: A miles x B years * $N/kWh * M kWh/mile / 90% charging efficiency

RAV4 case: Plug in A = 12,000, B = 6, C = 4, D = 22 for the gasser and you get $21,818 in fuel costs. RAV4 EV electric costs with A and B as above, N = 0.10, M = 0.440 come out to $4,693. Net "fuel" cost savings over 6 years and 72,000 miles therefore come out to $9,570. The net initial purchase price difference = $49.8k - $7,500 - ($29.9k * 1.091) = $9,679.

Therefore, the RAV4 EV breaks even at just over 6 years@12k miles/year, and that's before accounting for lower maintenance and increased resale value, the latter of which for used RAV4 EVs has historically been far greater than used gas RAV4s.

Motorcycle case: For the Triumph, A = 4,000, B = 6, C = 4, D = 40 yields $2,400. The Empulse R, with A and B as above, N = 0.10, M = 0.128 would drink $341 of electricity. Net "fuel" savings over 6 years, 24,000 miles would be $2,059. The net purchase price difference is $17,095 - ($9,599 * 1.091) = $6,622. It would take about 25 years, roughly speaking, before one recouped the cost difference.

I don't think the math for the Empulse R looks nearly as rosy as that for the RAV4 EV, needless to say, although it does have that intangible benefit of not using gas at all. Plug in a cheaper Zero or a more expensive gas motorcycle into the equation and one can come to a different conclusion, of course, but that wasn't the specific question being answered.

stevew, did you already post this?

Electric '34 Ford Project, by EV Consulting, Inc.


Rolling chassis


Battery boxes


What's inside those battery boxes


Under hood view


Set up for the dragstrip. NHRA certified (with a roll cage, too) to 8.5 seconds.

It's no joke:

- 1296 A123 26650 LiFePO4 batteries, nominal pack voltage of 356.2V, maximum current between the two battery boxes of 2800A (!!), which yields a maximum theoretical power of 997kW (!!!)
- Two Zilla (as in the drag bike) Z2K-EHV motor controllers, each of which is more than up to the power thrown at them by the batteries
- Two DC motors rated for 400 peak horsepower and 1000 ft-lbs peak torque

Yowza. That project had to have cost in the six figures…

Honda's UNI-CUB, the successor to 2009's U-3X.

The UNI-CUB is the next generation of the U3-X personal mobility device that Honda announced in 2009. The UNI-CUB does away with joy sticks and pedals. It combines balance control technology (it goes where you lean) with the world?s first omni-directional driving wheel system. Your range anxiety it will heal not. It has a range of 3.7 miles, and a max speed of 3.7 mph.

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