[Bikael Molton]

I think this deserves its own thread. As the sport grows, the racers deserve a unified voice, especially as they seem to be primarily interested in track safety as well as fairness for the racers struggling to quality. An association / union will be a good thing for the sport.

I think it’s rad that both vets and younger racers from many different backgrounds are for it.

side note: I think Henry Quinney is up there with Elliot as best new MTB media personalities.

 

[aaronjb]

The UCI barely puts up with a riders' organization on the road, their cash cow. No way this goes anywhere.

 

[Gary]

I think Henry Quinney is up there with Elliot as best new MTB media personalities.

He's not new.
His er... "personality" and wooden delivery made it a struggle to watch him when he first started on GMBN but he does seem to be getting a lot better at it now.

 

[Andeh]

I think it's pretty telling that the only guy who was pretty nonchalant about pending changes (Greg) is the one who's 40 (41?) years old, probably one of the extreme upper outliers in terms of pay, and could retire whenever he gets bored with racing. But with all the drama when Loris and Luca left Syndicate and speculation as to Greg's personality, maybe not surprising.

I'm impressed that someone who's also probably paid well (Loic) is sticking his neck out there for people who normally don't have a lot of leverage. Sounds like Amaury is pretty into the idea also.

 

[Jm_]

I thought this was going to be about DH I-drives

 

[Westy]

Hopefully they are an effective and honorable organization like the Union of Cyclists International.

 

[DaveW]

I think it's pretty telling that the only guy who was pretty nonchalant about pending changes (Greg) is the one who's 40 (41?) years old, probably one of the extreme upper outliers in terms of pay, and could retire whenever he gets bored with racing. But with all the drama when Loris and Luca left Syndicate and speculation as to Greg's personality, maybe not surprising.

I would also note that Greg is an member of the UCI Athletes Commission.

 

[shelteringsky]

I think it's pretty telling that the only guy who was pretty nonchalant about pending changes (Greg) is the one who's 40 (41?) years old, probably one of the extreme upper outliers in terms of pay, and could retire whenever he gets bored with racing. But with all the drama when Loris and Luca left Syndicate and speculation as to Greg's personality, maybe not surprising.

I'm impressed that someone who's also probably paid well (Loic) is sticking his neck out there for people who normally don't have a lot of leverage. Sounds like Amaury is pretty into the idea also.

I mean Minnaar is the GOAT so his salary is commensurate with that status. AFAIK, other Syndicate riders took issue with Peaty being “overbearing”. Hasn’t affected Laurie it would seem.

All for the riders union but I think as long as a track is race-tested, it should stay as is. As Wyn said re: the final bridge step down: “we’ve got brakes for a reason”. Think there’s a danger in tracks being made to cater for the loudest voices in the sport rather than being truly representative of the cohort. Wonder if Loic would push to take out a flat pedally section if he couldn’t use his fork lockout..

 

[sethimus]

I think it's pretty telling that the only guy who was pretty nonchalant about pending changes (Greg) is the one who's 40 (41?) years old, probably one of the extreme upper outliers in terms of pay, and could retire whenever he gets bored with racing. But with all the drama when Loris and Luca left Syndicate and speculation as to Greg's personality, maybe not surprising.

I'm impressed that someone who's also probably paid well (Loic) is sticking his neck out there for people who normally don't have a lot of leverage. Sounds like Amaury is pretty into the idea also.

millenials vs gen x

 

[aaronjb]

Steve Peat leaned into that "elder statesman" role and it's now been his entire personality for years. That and his stupid facial hair.

The pay dropoff after the top 15 or 20 riders (by results) is likely a cliff. As some have shown, though, if you can sustain enough eyeballs on the socials and just finish the races, one can still get paid.

Instead of a bunch of white dudes talking about how the courses are taped and how many riders will be televised, maybe they could all band together to foster better pay for women in the sport, and work toward increasing the pool of female juniors.

 

[Gary]

Steve Peat leaned into that "elder statesman" role and it's now been his entire personality for years. That and his stupid facial hair.

What is your deal with the Steve Peat hate?
He still does a fuck ton more for mountain biking than most current WC racers. Which is infinitely MOAR than you. The dudes personality is a lot bigger than the current DH facial hair trend and he's also sound AF IRL.

 

[Gary]

Instead of a bunch of white dudes talking about how the courses are taped and how many riders will be televised, maybe they could all band together to foster better pay for women in the sport, and work toward increasing the pool of female juniors.

Sport is just an entertainment industry. Ergo the more coverage a sportsperson has the bigger the pay cheque.
Sorry but that's just the reality if the situation. Money to pay a bunch of youngsters and women who just don't command the same viewers/fanbase has to come from somewhere.
I could moan as a 52yr old white male I can't earn as much as young chicks on onlyfans. It's kinda the same deal.

 

[sethimus]

you have an onlyfans?

 

[Gary]

Not a lucrative one

 

[sethimus]

are you blowing some scottish pipes over there? or just some upskirt shots?

 

[Gary]

 

[aaronjb]

What is your deal with the Steve Peat hate?
He still does a fuck ton more for mountain biking than most current WC racers. Which is infinitely MOAR than you. The dudes personality is a lot bigger than the current DH facial hair trend and he's also sound AF IRL.

I'm posting on an internet forum that's one pubic hair away from being a meme site at any given moment, so you may not want to take my posts too seriously.

That said, what's his job?

Maybe I just don't like anyone adjacent to Kathy Sessler, who is always first to drop a dime on another team or rider for any perceived slight or infraction, but complains when GM jumps corners or has to hike up to where he left the course when he goes off-course.

 

[aaronjb]

Sport is just an entertainment industry. Ergo the more coverage a sportsperson has the bigger the pay cheque.
Sorry but that's just the reality if the situation. Money to pay a bunch of youngsters and women who just don't command the same viewers/fanbase has to come from somewhere.
I could moan as a 52yr old white male I can't earn as much as young chicks on onlyfans. It's kinda the same deal.

This has been debated in other sports for years, and the right thing to do is to mandate (or force via bargaining) equivalent (or even equal) pay, particularly in a niche sport such as this. Hell, women's XC racing is currently the most exciting bike racing going in any discipline.

Or, like you suggest, we can just give up and let the market decide.

 

[Gary]

I'm posting on an internet forum that's one pubic hair away from being a meme site at any given moment, so you may not want to take my posts too seriously.

That said, what's his job?

Maybe I just don't like anyone adjacent to Kathy Sessler, who is always first to drop a dime on another team or rider for any perceived slight or infraction, but complains when GM jumps corners or has to hike up to where he left the course when he goes off-course.

Weird

 

[norbar]

Sport is just an entertainment industry. Ergo the more coverage a sportsperson has the bigger the pay cheque.
Sorry but that's just the reality if the situation. Money to pay a bunch of youngsters and women who just don't command the same viewers/fanbase has to come from somewhere.
I could moan as a 52yr old white male I can't earn as much as young chicks on onlyfans. It's kinda the same deal.

Yes but that's why you form union. To have collective bargaining power vs the people in power and that way not only the few athletes at the top have any sort of power.

Funny thing you mention the "entertainment industry" since the movie & TV industry is unionized as fuck and while it is not perfect it helps a lot. Hell they also hold strikes that paralyze the industry and generally the industry gives in to a large % of the demands.

Not saying we will suddenly see women getting equal pay at all places or a 60 people juniors field, that's unrealistic but with an union riders can roll back some of the UCI fuckery of selling the sport they don't even like to the biggest bidder and not caring what people who like the sport think about their ideas.

 

[Westy]

Yes but that's why you form union. To have collective bargaining power vs the people in power and that way not only the few athletes at the top have any sort of power.

Funny thing you mention the "entertainment industry" since the movie & TV industry is unionized as fuck and while it is not perfect it helps a lot. Hell they also hold strikes that paralyze the industry and generally the industry gives in to a large % of the demands.

Not saying we will suddenly see women getting equal pay at all places or a 60 people juniors field, that's unrealistic but with an union riders can roll back some of the UCI fuckery of selling the sport they don't even like to the biggest bidder and not caring what people who like the sport think about their ideas.

This isn't like the NBA where the athletes can collectively bargain pay as it is made up of sponsor driven independent teams and even independent riders. They could argue for equal prize money but when the top men are only winning a few thousand euros that isn't going to make much of a difference. This is a sponsor driven sport and rider's income is driven by their perceived marketing value and willingness to hustle.

Most events don't charge for tickets and although unsure I doubt teams see a cent of any of the television rights.

 

[Gary]

I didn't mention TV or film industries.
Sport makes money through entertaining the public

 

[marshalolson]

My read on the attempt to unionize is less about leveraging more money from sponsors, but to actually benefit from the sale of broadcasting (ads) of the races, as well as to generally help protect the rights of all racers.

interested to see where it goes.

 

[StiHacka]

interested to see where it goes.

Enjoy DH races while you can.

 

[norbar]

This isn't like the NBA where the athletes can collectively bargain pay as it is made up of sponsor driven independent teams and even independent riders. They could argue for equal prize money but when the top men are only winning a few thousand euros that isn't going to make much of a difference. This is a sponsor driven sport and rider's income is driven by their perceived marketing value and willingness to hustle.

Most events don't charge for tickets and although unsure I doubt teams see a cent of any of the television rights.

I am 100% aware of that. But a union still makes sense. If the UCI would want to shorten the qualified list to 30 a Union could block that move. If UCI wants to make stupid changes to rules forbiding something riders love or allowing something they hate same applies. Not to mention they could push for specific rules about tracks and safety since riders often voice their displeasure here.

Generally I don't think it will be about "give us money" but more about blocking the UCI from screwing over riders to get more money themselves.

 

[norbar]

My read on the attempt to unionize is less about leveraging more money from sponsors, but to actually benefit from the sale of broadcasting (ads) of the races, as well as to generally help protect the rights of all racers.

interested to see where it goes.

This could also help team videographers not be blocked from certain things. They could affect what is in future deals with broadcasters.

 

[norbar]

I didn't mention TV or film industries.
Sport makes money through entertaining the public

I was being anal but you did say "entertainment" without being specific.

 

[Lelandjt]

millenials vs gen x

Minaar is Gen Y. He was born in the 80s.

 

[Lelandjt]

This has been debated in other sports for years, and the right thing to do is to mandate (or force via bargaining) equivalent (or even equal) pay, particularly in a niche sport such as this. Hell, women's XC racing is currently the most exciting bike racing going in any discipline.

Or, like you suggest, we can just give up and let the market decide.

My last few years racing pro what I saw was a men's field with nearly 100 riders and the top 20 separated by very little time while only the top 3 took home any significant money and 5th place maybe got enough to cover the entry fee. Meanwhile the women's field had 2 or 3 people pushing hard while the other 5 were there for fun and the majority of them got paid at the end. Besides the increased risk and effort going on in the men's field there were many thousands more in entry fees to support the prize purse and those factors made me think the pay should be greater and go deeper into the field.
The easy response to this is it's bigoted and we need equality but when you've experienced several close calls over a weekend and managed to finish a small fraction off the winning pace, only to go home empty handed, then you watch someone who's many minutes off your pace take home a check, that doesn't feel very equal.

 

[Gary]

How is

Sport is just an entertainment industry.

not specific enough for you?
I'm not looking for a reply. Just puzzled by your reaction.
I've stated my opinion and really can't be bothered replying back and forth.
Yes. A riders union would be a good thing. But I see your idea of how riders should be paid more equally as hugely flawed. My thoughts align with @Lelandjt's on that point.

 

[aaronjb]

My last few years racing pro what I saw was a men's field with nearly 100 riders and the top 20 separated by very little time while only the top 3 took home any significant money and 5th place maybe got enough to cover the entry fee. Meanwhile the women's field had 2 or 3 people pushing hard while the other 5 were there for fun and the majority of them got paid at the end. Besides the increased risk and effort going on in the men's field there were many thousands more in entry fees to support the prize purse and those factors made me think the pay should be greater and go deeper into the field.
The easy response to this is it's bigoted and we need equality but when you've experienced several close calls over a weekend and managed to finish a small fraction off the winning pace, only to go home empty handed, then you watch someone who's many minutes off your pace take home a check, that doesn't feel very equal.

Counterpoint: you should have been faster to get into the prize money. See how this line of argument works?

Support women's racing. It's the right thing to do. The problem you outline doesn't have anything to do with equal prize/contract money for women. Though we seem to be moving beyond this, there was a period where elite female racers were encouraged to make revealing social media posts and keep their relationship status private, and so on. As a former pro, I'm sure you experienced that pressure as well, right?

What's a pro doing worried about field sizes and entry fees, anyway?

 

[norbar]

How is not specific enough for you?
I'm not looking for a reply. Just puzzled by your reaction.
I've stated my opinion and really can't be bothered replying back and forth.
Yes. A riders union would be a good thing. But I see your idea of how riders should be paid more equally as hugely flawed. My thoughts align with @Lelandjt's on that on that.

When you say sport is just an entertinment industry it suggests you are relating to the entertainment industry as a whole not comparing downhill to the subset of the entertainment industry that is "sports entertainment"

 

[norbar]

Counterpoint: you should have been faster to get into the prize money. See how this line of argument works?

Support women's racing. It's the right thing to do. The problem you outline doesn't have anything to do with equal prize/contract money for women. Though we seem to be moving beyond this, there was a period where elite female racers were encouraged to make revealing social media posts and keep their relationship status private, and so on. As a former pro, I'm sure you experienced that pressure as well, right?

What's a pro doing worried about field sizes and entry fees, anyway?

I think the way to attract more women to race is to create an environment where more women actually chose the sport and when they do they want to race. There are fewer female downhillers but also there are many very fast women that chose not to race where guys in their place at least tried to do so. No idea how to solve it but it's the same problem Hollywood is facing with the lack of female directors and writers (though to a lesser extent). You need more female "aplicants" to have a bigger talent pool to chose from. Though in Hollywood the bigger problem was women were being gatekept from getting good projects too and here it's not an issue.

 

[Gary]

How about you stop overthinking everything and adding your own irrelevant thoughts to what was an incredibly basic statement.

 

[Gary]

Oh. And please STFU about Hollywood

 

[johnbryanpeters]

When you say sport is just an entertinment industry it suggests you are relating to the entertainment industry as a whole not comparing downhill to the subset of the entertainment industry that is "sports entertainment"

Which is ritualized warfare.

 

[norbar]

How about you stop overthinking everything and adding your own irrelevant thoughts to what was an incredibly basic statement.

I'm not overthinking anything. You were imprecise. Then you got angry others read your comments as they were written. This isn't overthinking. Quite the opposite. It requires extra thought to understand what you meant because you were not precise.

Though what I do really expect was you wanted to say general entertainment but since my general entertainment industry comparisons don't suit your arguments you are not complaining. Seriously stop crying about how I'm using actual real life examples of how unionizing might help and what it could do instead of made up theories that come to Gary while he's shitting. I will use the comparisons I like. If it makes you angry that's your problem

 

[Gary]

angry

C'mon dude. Its a daft bike forum. FFS. I've never typed a reply in anger the 20+ years I'VE been active here.

You're still massively overthinking and being massively irrelevant BTW.

If you really can't see that big time mainstream sport is an entertainment industry you need to open your eyes.

Comparisons with Hollywood are pointless, stupid and irrelevant.

 

[norbar]

C'mon dude. Its a daft bike forum. FFS. I've never typed a reply in anger the 20+ years I'VE been active here.

You're still massively overthinking and being massively irrelevant BTW.

If you really can't see that big time mainstream sport is an entertainment industry you need to open your eyes.

Comparisons with Hollywood are pointless, stupid and irrelevant.

I do see a big sport as an entertainment industry this is why Im comparing sports to hollywood.

Also no. Comparisons to hollywood are not pointless since hollywood is 1. Entertainment 2. Heavily unionized 3. Unions work there.

Also well if you say stuff like "STFU" it does look like you're pretty far from a buddist monk but I'm being an asshole now so I will assume you're not angry from now on

 

[Lelandjt]

Counterpoint: you should have been faster to get into the prize money. See how this line of argument works?

No, I don't because I don't get what that has to do with equal payout for the women's field.

Support women's racing. It's the right thing to do. The problem you outline doesn't have anything to do with equal prize/contract money for women.

I do support women's racing, in that I've encouraged women to race and coached some. I got my girlfriend to race long enough to graduate from amateur to do one pro race before she realized she doesn't like the risk. I don't think a much smaller field should have the same payout to the same number of places. Maybe same for first and then going down quicker and not as deep. In large races I think the top ten pro men should at least be getting their entry fee back.

Though we seem to be moving beyond this, there was a period where elite female racers were encouraged to make revealing social media posts and keep their relationship status private, and so on.

I never saw that and would go as far as to say you made it up. The most successful female pro I'm close with (Heather Irminger) was even proposed to on a Nat Champs podium by her husband. I think their relationship was a boon to both of their marketabilities and I can think of a few other pro couples in the same boat.

What's a pro doing worried about field sizes and entry fees, anyway?

I don't know how you got the idea that I was worried about field sizes. Bigger fields are always good. While I didn't express "worry" about entry fees they're an expense and in enduro they became a big expense. Sometimes you get a free entry and sometimes sponsors cover it or reimburse but that wasn't my point either. The point was entry fees fill the prize purse at races below the WC level. A larger field should support a larger purse. I'd like to see generous and deep payouts for both sexes (you should see the prize money at surf contests!), but promoters say there isn't enough money for that so at least pay well to the large, competitive class. I think you're forgetting there's something called a "privateer pro" who doesn't have a large team handling all expenses. Should those guys just sandbag the amateur class and take home sometimes surprisingly valuable prizes without breaking a sweat or should they be challenging the factory guys and at least breaking even when they come close?