Another think to consider that I'm very curious about. How could be a Pinion's mounting counterpart moulded into carbon frame? Allowing for as low shock placement as possible...
G-BOXX Planetary, first pics
- Thread starter Wilhelm
- Start date
I think It's going to be difficult. A high pivot like the Superco Silencer or Katipo will be almost impossible to do. The BMW Racelink is probably the best layout for a High pivot with idler. With a standar Pivot you can do someting like the Nicolai Ion or Helius without problems.
Anyway, I think that the low COG theory is all marketing, a shock with a Ti Spring weight 0.8Kg, it's only 1% of the bike and rider. BB height is more important.
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A bunch of PINION pics by tfj77 (24x), ENDORFIN (12x), and LIGHT-BIKES (2x):
The gearbox:
The CNC milled mount:
The twistshifter:
The gearbox fitted in an ENDORFIN hardtail:
The gearbox fitted in a HOT CHILLI full-susser:
A gearbox prototype fitted in a trekking testbike (Himalaya tour!):
Action, please (test ride resp. "spin as spin can!"
):
The gearbox:
The CNC milled mount:
The twistshifter:
The gearbox fitted in an ENDORFIN hardtail:
The gearbox fitted in a HOT CHILLI full-susser:
A gearbox prototype fitted in a trekking testbike (Himalaya tour!):
Action, please (test ride resp. "spin as spin can!"
):
Yes, but how does the antisquat curve look like from start to the middle of the travel? My guess is it's going from 110% straight down do 10-30% at the end of travel, so the SAG point may have about 70-80% AS.
Something asks to be implemented here to keep things nice and level
.
Something asks to be implemented here to keep things nice and level
.Nope, the AS curve looks really nice... 119%-73% with a 30-16 gearing. 109% at the SAG point. I'm not sure if the front ring is a 30T on that Chili, It could be a 28T... and the rear could be a 15T or 14T. It's hard to tell from just a picture but this is a nice standar, It looks promising.Yes, but how does the antisquat curve look like from start to the middle of the travel? My guess is it's going from 110% straight down do 10-30% at the end of travel, so the SAG point may have about 70-80% AS.
Something asks to be implemented here to keep things nice and level
Wow, the Pinion gearbox looks sweet.
If it is running a 6x3 gear combo internally I wonder if you could lose the 3 multiplier (if that makes sense?) and leave a lighter 6-speed DH set-up?
I have a mate doing Eurobike repo for Pinkbike so I asked him to get a closer look.
One idea for improvement may be to have a bearing reciever stub machined in to the main (BB) shaft and/or one around the secondary shaft (where there is a raised stub anyway. This would give loads of pivot options to manufacturers, i.e. concentric/ fore/ aft/ etc.
Liking where this is all going though! (maybe I should have waited to build my DH bike- oh well, nevermind)
If it is running a 6x3 gear combo internally I wonder if you could lose the 3 multiplier (if that makes sense?) and leave a lighter 6-speed DH set-up?
I have a mate doing Eurobike repo for Pinkbike so I asked him to get a closer look.
One idea for improvement may be to have a bearing reciever stub machined in to the main (BB) shaft and/or one around the secondary shaft (where there is a raised stub anyway. This would give loads of pivot options to manufacturers, i.e. concentric/ fore/ aft/ etc.
Liking where this is all going though! (maybe I should have waited to build my DH bike- oh well, nevermind)
Not a bad idea, also some means of mounting a chain guide would be good.
It looks like they have a few different versions of the gearbox on the go..
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Iterative design is the best way to progress any product, and you end up making things way more efficient/stronger/better looking that way.
Hi,
I was just lurking at the "PINION P1" website. The guys revealed some promising informations in the new FAQ section recently. Here you are:
When will the Pinion P-1 become available?
Our goal is to provide our customers with a well-engineered, high-quality and market-ready product that will last a long time. At present, we are in the middle of the test phase. Only once we have successfully completed testing, we will release the gear system for series production. What's more, when the system will become available to end customers will depend greatly on the bike manufacturers, because they will first of all have to develop frames the gear system can be fitted to. Our planned date for the start of production is sometime during the course of 2011. Bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system will then be available for purchase a short time later.
Which bike manufacturers will offer bikes with the Pinion P-1? Where can I buy the gear system?
We're currently holding talks with a number of bike manufacturers. As soon as decisions have been made and contracts signed, we will post a list of those manufacturers who will be offering bikes with our Pinion P-1 gear system on our website. You'll then be able to buy these bikes from specialist bike shops or through the respective manufacturer.
How much will the gear system cost?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, it will initially be made available only in new, fully assembled bikes. The pricing of such bikes is a matter for each respective manufacturer. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on the price demanded from the end customer. However, what we can now already say for certain is that the P-1 gear system is a piece of engineering that bears what is essentially a quality mark, "Made in Germany", and that will be found in high-quality, up-market bikes.
Can I as an end customer buy the gear system myself as a separate retrofit assembly?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, we will initially be working with bike manufacturers who will develop a new frame specifically to match this gearing.
In what countries will I be able to buy bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system?
This will essentially depend on the countries in which the bike manufacturers market their products. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on this.
What is the weight of the P-1 gearbox?
In its present form, the P-1, including chainwheel, without cranks weights approx. 2.7 kg.
Will it be any lighter by the time it goes into production?
That will depend on how its development progresses. Our absolute priority is to ensure the system is reliable and durable.
How does the gear system work?
The system is a spur gear unit and has two stages: a 3-speed and a 6-speed stage. The 3-speed stage has wide-spaced ratios (like the front chainwheels of derailleur gears), while the 6-speed stage has close-spaced ratios (like the cassette of a derailleur system). The 18 speeds have no overlap and are the result of multiplying the two stages.
Will there be lighter versions, versions with different numbers of speeds/ratio spacings?
Before we start thinking about different versions, we need to complete development of this system through to the series production stage. We're talking about a new technology here, that's still got to step up to the starting block. As with any kind of technology, we will continue to develop this system in the coming years.
Will the system also be available with a lever gearchange?
We're thinking about it, but it would mean going down a whole new avenue of development, so we'll be kicking off with twist shifter first.
Can the gear system be fitted to a carbon frame?
In principle, the system can also be fitted to a carbon frame. That said, the amount of development work required would be quite considerable, which is why we won't be looking at this until the next stage of development.
How is the gear system integrated into the frame of the bike?
Instead of a bottom bracket, the frame of a bike designed for the P-1 has a mounting bracket that is welded in as an integral part of the frame. The gear system is then bolted to this mounting bracket. Can the gear system be fitted to a steel or titanium frame? Yes, the only requirement is that the mounting bracket is made of the same material as the frame, because it has to be welded to it. The gear system is mounted to this bracket as described here.
Can the gear system also be installed in other types of bike (recumbents, folding bikes, etc.)?
It's possible, of course. The installation specifications can be applied to many different classes of bike. Whether or not it will be done is a matter for the bike manufacturers.
Will there also be a version that uses a toothed belt?
It is in principle feasible to replace the chain with a toothed belt, but it would mean fitting the gear unit with an appropriate pulley. We will be trying out a toothed belt as an alternative mode of transmission and will offer it if we find it really works well. Fitting a toothed belt would, however, mean that the bike frame would have to be able to be opened at the triangle formed by the seat tube, the chain stays and the seat stays.
Will the system need oil changes?
The gears run in a sealed oil bath. The tests we are currently carrying out include trying out various oils to see how they impact on the gear's running characteristics and stability. We will specify oil-change intervals based on the results of these tests. What is already clear is that the oil won't need changing very often (around once a year or every 10,000 km) and that oil changes will be simple to carry out.
Can I test ride the gear system or help you develop it by acting as a test rider?
Our prototypes are being ridden by Pinion test riders. Unfortunately, we're not able to provide prototypes for test riding and we currently have no need for any additional test riders. = The bad news
I'm a bike manufacturer. How can I get my hands on additional technical information and installation specifications?
Please email us at info@pinion.eu
I've already sent an email to Pinion but haven't yet received a reply. Why?
First of all, we would like to thank you for showing an interest and for your positive feedback. We're currently inundated with enquiries, which is why it may take a while until we get back to you. Despite this, we're trying to reply to all enquiries made.
I was just lurking at the "PINION P1" website. The guys revealed some promising informations in the new FAQ section recently. Here you are:
When will the Pinion P-1 become available?
Our goal is to provide our customers with a well-engineered, high-quality and market-ready product that will last a long time. At present, we are in the middle of the test phase. Only once we have successfully completed testing, we will release the gear system for series production. What's more, when the system will become available to end customers will depend greatly on the bike manufacturers, because they will first of all have to develop frames the gear system can be fitted to. Our planned date for the start of production is sometime during the course of 2011. Bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system will then be available for purchase a short time later.
Which bike manufacturers will offer bikes with the Pinion P-1? Where can I buy the gear system?
We're currently holding talks with a number of bike manufacturers. As soon as decisions have been made and contracts signed, we will post a list of those manufacturers who will be offering bikes with our Pinion P-1 gear system on our website. You'll then be able to buy these bikes from specialist bike shops or through the respective manufacturer.
How much will the gear system cost?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, it will initially be made available only in new, fully assembled bikes. The pricing of such bikes is a matter for each respective manufacturer. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on the price demanded from the end customer. However, what we can now already say for certain is that the P-1 gear system is a piece of engineering that bears what is essentially a quality mark, "Made in Germany", and that will be found in high-quality, up-market bikes.
Can I as an end customer buy the gear system myself as a separate retrofit assembly?
Owing to the fact that the gear system can not readily be retrofitted to an existing frame, we will initially be working with bike manufacturers who will develop a new frame specifically to match this gearing.
In what countries will I be able to buy bikes fitted with the Pinion gear system?
This will essentially depend on the countries in which the bike manufacturers market their products. As a component manufacturer, we have little influence on this.
What is the weight of the P-1 gearbox?
In its present form, the P-1, including chainwheel, without cranks weights approx. 2.7 kg.
Will it be any lighter by the time it goes into production?
That will depend on how its development progresses. Our absolute priority is to ensure the system is reliable and durable.
How does the gear system work?
The system is a spur gear unit and has two stages: a 3-speed and a 6-speed stage. The 3-speed stage has wide-spaced ratios (like the front chainwheels of derailleur gears), while the 6-speed stage has close-spaced ratios (like the cassette of a derailleur system). The 18 speeds have no overlap and are the result of multiplying the two stages.
Will there be lighter versions, versions with different numbers of speeds/ratio spacings?
Before we start thinking about different versions, we need to complete development of this system through to the series production stage. We're talking about a new technology here, that's still got to step up to the starting block. As with any kind of technology, we will continue to develop this system in the coming years.
Will the system also be available with a lever gearchange?
We're thinking about it, but it would mean going down a whole new avenue of development, so we'll be kicking off with twist shifter first.
Can the gear system be fitted to a carbon frame?
In principle, the system can also be fitted to a carbon frame. That said, the amount of development work required would be quite considerable, which is why we won't be looking at this until the next stage of development.
How is the gear system integrated into the frame of the bike?
Instead of a bottom bracket, the frame of a bike designed for the P-1 has a mounting bracket that is welded in as an integral part of the frame. The gear system is then bolted to this mounting bracket. Can the gear system be fitted to a steel or titanium frame? Yes, the only requirement is that the mounting bracket is made of the same material as the frame, because it has to be welded to it. The gear system is mounted to this bracket as described here.
Can the gear system also be installed in other types of bike (recumbents, folding bikes, etc.)?
It's possible, of course. The installation specifications can be applied to many different classes of bike. Whether or not it will be done is a matter for the bike manufacturers.
Will there also be a version that uses a toothed belt?
It is in principle feasible to replace the chain with a toothed belt, but it would mean fitting the gear unit with an appropriate pulley. We will be trying out a toothed belt as an alternative mode of transmission and will offer it if we find it really works well. Fitting a toothed belt would, however, mean that the bike frame would have to be able to be opened at the triangle formed by the seat tube, the chain stays and the seat stays.
Will the system need oil changes?
The gears run in a sealed oil bath. The tests we are currently carrying out include trying out various oils to see how they impact on the gear's running characteristics and stability. We will specify oil-change intervals based on the results of these tests. What is already clear is that the oil won't need changing very often (around once a year or every 10,000 km) and that oil changes will be simple to carry out.
Can I test ride the gear system or help you develop it by acting as a test rider?
Our prototypes are being ridden by Pinion test riders. Unfortunately, we're not able to provide prototypes for test riding and we currently have no need for any additional test riders. = The bad news
I'm a bike manufacturer. How can I get my hands on additional technical information and installation specifications?
Please email us at info@pinion.eu
May some of you guys who are in the bike business contact the PINION crew to get some additional first-hand informations (e.g. Vrock or his JERÓNIMO CHABARDO buddy ... )? 
I've already sent an email to Pinion but haven't yet received a reply. Why?
First of all, we would like to thank you for showing an interest and for your positive feedback. We're currently inundated with enquiries, which is why it may take a while until we get back to you. Despite this, we're trying to reply to all enquiries made.
I think this thread should be renamed something along the lines of "Official Gearbox Thread" and Stickied.
There is already a gearbox thread.
Let's move any talk of pinion, zerode, or other, into it or into their own threads.
Let's leave the g-boxx thread until the magical g-boxx 3 with trigger shifters appears.
Let's move any talk of pinion, zerode, or other, into it or into their own threads.
Let's leave the g-boxx thread until the magical g-boxx 3 with trigger shifters appears.
So you want to kill this thread?
well, let's just leave it to g-boxx news and not other gearbox news.
So your intention is to intimidate Kalle NICOLAI to get on move?
To complete the above "PINION-P1 at Eurobike 2010" picture gallery (thanks to tfj77!): Christoph LERMEN and Michael SCHMITZ from PINION GmbH with Joe BREEZE, having some tech talk, and a test ride (hope that EVRAC will forgive me ).
).
needs moar pictures.
Unfortunately, no delightful news about the "Box", besides a more lightweight "Nucleon AC" with a new G-Boxx was announced to be unveilled in March 2011. So I hope that news will be available latest at the NICOLAI open-house in August 2011 (date not yet specified).
Does anybody have some informations about this new British gearbox project?
Does anybody have some informations about this new British gearbox project?
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Link no worky 
just my phone??
just my phone??
The link is indeed working. Unfortunately you get no more than the above pic and "COMING SOON ... ". That´s why I am curious if anybody knows more about these gearbox maniacs.Link no worky
Hmm, i see an axial needle bearing, a ISIS type spline and planetary gears.
Looks like its something similar to the pinion.
The PINION-P1 doesn´t use planetary gears, it´s some type of returning 2-shaft spur gear transmission (see above in this thread). For patent specifications of the PINION check this site (key words: "Christoph LERMEN", "Michael SCHMITZ" [the PINION people]), or 1, 2 and 3.Hmm, i see an axial needle bearing, a ISIS type spline and planetary gears.
Looks like its something similar to the pinion.
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Edmund NAGEL unveilled an interesting ratcheting-type CVT at NAGELCRAFT (website unfortunately in German, only). Although it isn´t the first approach to this type of bicycle gearing, Edmund says that he has more than a dozen patents pending, related to this gearbox. The acclaimed data sound promising.
Technical data according to NAGELCRAFT:
Tech sheet (pdf)
NAGELCRAFT gearbox animation
Technical data according to NAGELCRAFT:
- continuously variable transmission
- efficiency like the best premium chaindrives
- gear range 520%
- weight is just over 1,000 grams,
- volume capacity less than 400 ccm
- shifting under load and at rest
- shifts by an ultra-light single handlebar switch or alternatively automatically by a bike computer
- fits on any bike (trekking, racing and mountain bike) with BSA bottom bracket
- fully encapsulated, stain-resistant, runs in an oil bath
- straight chainline
- no transmission parts at the rear wheel
- extremely durable such as a planetary gear
- ideally suited for e-bikes, too
Tech sheet (pdf)
NAGELCRAFT gearbox animation
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uh, very interesting, looking forward to eurobike 
So we´ll have G-Boxx, PINION-P1, NAGELCRAFT ...uh, very interesting, looking forward to eurobike
Can´t wait until Eurobike.
Wonder what the losses are on the Nagel?
... that it is not yet in the market, at least.
BTW, I wanted to know this, too. May be that Edmund did many things right indeed.
HOLY CRAP that's nice.
Love the double cam!! Reminds me of my Mechanism Analysis and Design final project.
I'd rather see it as a gearbox rather than a BB mounted box for conventional frames. Will be interesting to see it'd durability. Is there bearings at the e4nd of the arms the\at roll over the cams?
It's interesting, but I've still got some Nageling questions.
Efficiency?
Cost?
Reliability?
Availability of spare parts?
Does it have to go back to the lab for service?
Right now it looks like a solidworks pipedream, but I'll reserve judgement until there are some real-world reviews.
Invisible and yet visible at the same time.
May "PANDORA´s Box" of CERONIMO Cycles be one of the first candidates for the PINION-P1?
May "PANDORA´s Box" of CERONIMO Cycles be one of the first candidates for the PINION-P1?
the new frame from jürgen schlender (alutech owner) see @ Eurobike 31.08.2011--03.09.2011 Hall A2, Booth 207.
http://website.alutech-bikes.de/shopnews.php?news_id=27&XTCsid=aa117911ba27212a13a93f7d25c8dde9
tfj77
http://website.alutech-bikes.de/shopnews.php?news_id=27&XTCsid=aa117911ba27212a13a93f7d25c8dde9
tfj77