Quantcast

New Santa Cruz Bikes

FlipFantasia

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,670
501
Sea to Sky BC
At that point they would be "slopestyle/mini DH bikes" not trail bikes.
Have you climbed with anything slacker than a 65deg. head angle?
It's really not so much fun. To me, my trail bike has to be able to get me to the top in order to be able to blast the downhills in the trail. Further more, if someone is going to market a bike as a "trail" or "all-mountain" bike, people will expect it to climb well. A slack head angle on climbs is quite awkward and the wheel loves to flop. In addition not everyone wants to have to flip a lever to raise there seat and twist a knob to lower their fork everytime a hill arises(poor pun intended). Finding a happy medium, that allows me to hop on, pedal to the top and blast down without worry appeals to me. Less is more, and I want more; more fun, more time on my bike, and more stories about how much fun it is to ride a bike.

Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't want to make my trail bike into a short travel bike wishing it were downhill bike.
this post deserves to be repeated. I've got 66.5 with my lyrik solo air on my cove hustler, and its a bear to handle. definitely wanders and forces an inordinate amount of attention to keep it tracking where you want. sometimes you just need to go with the flow! it's probably a bit slacker than I'd prefer, but I can manage the climbs and it makes for a fun descender. definitely wouldn't want it any slacker as it would definitely become an unruly pig at that point.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,659
1,130
NORCAL is the hizzle
Cool. Aside from it being an improvement, does it actually do what they say it does, feel like a VPP (not wheel path obviously)? Or is it more of a standard progressive linkage? It does look like it would be a fun bike.
The best I can tell you is that it is it's own bike, sort of something in the middle. As in, it has the shock rate as described, so it's different from the heckler/superlight, but since it's a single pivot it has different characteristics than the VPP bikes. Super fun.
 

Acadian

Born Again Newbie
Sep 5, 2001
714
2
Blah Blah and Blah
this post deserves to be repeated. I've got 66.5 with my lyrik solo air on my cove hustler, and its a bear to handle. definitely wanders and forces an inordinate amount of attention to keep it tracking where you want. sometimes you just need to go with the flow! it's probably a bit slacker than I'd prefer, but I can manage the climbs and it makes for a fun descender. definitely wouldn't want it any slacker as it would definitely become an unruly pig at that point.
it's all bout personal preference.

my Reign sits close to 65 and my Orange Alpine is even slacker and I have no problem with climbing then and I actually prefer the way the slacker bikes handle.

Yes bikes with slack HA are a chore on flatter terrain with tons of thigh turns since you really have to maintain speed and use a fair amount of body English, but I actually like it that way.

different strokes for different folks.

with that said - considering how much I like my Orange SP, I would love to try an APP bike.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,582
2,012
Seattle
it's all bout personal preference.

my Reign sits close to 65 and my Orange Alpine is even slacker and I have no problem with climbing then and I actually prefer the way the slacker bikes handle.

Yes bikes with slack HA are a chore on flatter terrain with tons of thigh turns since you really have to maintain speed and use a fair amount of body English, but I actually like it that way.

different strokes for different folks.

with that said - considering how much I like my Orange SP, I would love to try an APP bike.
My "trail bike" has a 65.5 HTA. Wouldn't recommend that for everyone, but I like it.
 

bogusbill

Chimp
Oct 16, 2009
52
0
If the only thing that's keeping the US economy competitive with the rest of the world is our sheer patriotism, the US is screwed anyways.
Thanks for only quoting one part of my post. Patriotism is not an issue I brought up. Instead the fact that we need to get off our fat asses and do the things that others provide us with. There is no reason we can't as manufacturers compete with taiwan or south korea, china is a different deal. Why the hell don't our own teenagers harvest our crops for the same wages. Because we have forgotten what hard work is.
 

BmxConvert

Monkey
Aug 6, 2007
715
0
Longview, Washington
this post deserves to be repeated. I've got 66.5 with my lyrik solo air on my cove hustler, and its a bear to handle. definitely wanders and forces an inordinate amount of attention to keep it tracking where you want. sometimes you just need to go with the flow! it's probably a bit slacker than I'd prefer, but I can manage the climbs and it makes for a fun descender. definitely wouldn't want it any slacker as it would definitely become an unruly pig at that point.
I've got a friend/co worker with a 2010 Enduro which has a 66.5 degree head angle and it does still experience some the same flop and migrating and what not but it's not too horrible. In fact I really like that bike, especially if I wanted one bike to do everything.
I think that magic number floats around 67-68 degrees for a fairly slack, long travel trail bike that rips trail.
Totally personal preference, but again the original question was "why are there not sub 65 deg head angle trail bikes". I'm quite sure Santa Cruz(and most other manufacturers) would like to sell lots of their frames to people who prefer to make climbing easy and enjoyable than to a select few downhillers that make up a tiny percent that want to have world cup downhill headangle slack on their trail bike.
 

WBC

Monkey
Aug 8, 2003
578
1
PNW
I've got a friend/co worker with a 2010 Enduro which has a 66.5 degree head angle and it does still experience some the same flop and migrating and what not but it's not too horrible. In fact I really like that bike, especially if I wanted one bike to do everything.
I think that magic number floats around 67-68 degrees for a fairly slack, long travel trail bike that rips trail.
Totally personal preference, but again the original question was "why are there not sub 65 deg head angle trail bikes". I'm quite sure Santa Cruz(and most other manufacturers) would like to sell lots of their frames to people who prefer to make climbing easy and enjoyable than to a select few downhillers that make up a tiny percent that want to have world cup downhill headangle slack on their trail bike.
Being primarily a DHer, I am certainly biased, but I have been riding way more XC this past year than DH.

I think 68 is too steep for a 6" bike. Flat out. I used to have a Norco Fluid LT. Stiffer than any DH bike, nice angles and lengths, good shock curve, etc and the bike was solid in every way - except the HA. It was too much travel and height to shred uphill and was lacking in the DH. "Built for anything, sucks for everything." That's too harsh as it was a good bike overall, but I just could never get comfortable (until I short-shocked it, giving it a 12.5" BB and 64 HA - but that was too much for anything but super smooth, super high speed).

I'm now on their 5" frame - the standard Fluid, and while it's steeper, at least it shreds flat and uphill trails. I figure I always have the big bike for getting gnar-bar on the downhills.

I am one to believe that a bike needs to be designed with a bias - mind you: one that you can overcome with an adjustable height fork, but when it's all out, it needs to either be a great climber or a great descender. It's no fun if it's neither, and a 6" bike will never be a stellar climber, for if no other reason than you'd have to make it way too tall and steep to make it warrant the inherently mushy suspension (Chumba EVO is a great example of that - terrible bike).
 

Sam B

Monkey
Nov 25, 2001
280
0
Cascadia
how come no one makes a trail bike with 5~6 inches of travel and 63-65 degree head angle? i think that'd be the best thing for people to get into the world of dh but dont want a downhill bike to begin with

front end stability without the need of dc fork and pretty much a dh oriented all around bike
Because you would either have a monster wheelbase or a mini cockpit.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,105
9,760
AK
I see your point, I would much rather spend my money to help keep unemployment rates down and increase the GNP of a country other than my own and in the mean time help to rid this country of any of the skilled labor required to make said product just as good or better, or any other product for that matter, but be sure to support your LBS since all that will be left will be service jobs.

Don't get me wrong I'm well aware of the quality that comes from Taiwan and that most brands have been made there for a long time now. Hydroforming was not invented there but they seem to be the leaders in that technology for the bike industry. I am also aware that alot of the frames are produced by Giant. I try to buy what I can from North America when it makes sense. I have Taiwaines, Canadian and U.S. made bikes all of somewhat equal quality I just feel better thinking that I might be helping a blue collar workers job stay here by buying what I can instead of feeding the never rising tide of outsourcing.
I'd argue that it has the opposite effect, it hurts Nothern American businesses in the long run. What you do by supporting the idea that they can endlessly crank out the same "widgets" year after year is kill their ability to compete. Other businesses, and especially other countries, will invent new processes, use new materials, use new manufacturing techniques, and so on. The only constant in business is change, and the idea that you can endlessly crank out the same product year after year is just flat out insane. Right now, cheap labor drives the market, but what a company has to do is develop new processes, new ways to manage their resources, and so on. Maybe robots will eventually make all products and it won't matter what country it's done in, or maybe we'll do it first. The problem is that buying according to nationalistic prejudice does not support a free market. Meanwhile other markets are moving ahead and evolving, but you are essentially dooming your own businesses, because they will not have a reason to evolve and they will not be driven to compete. One day, they'll find themselves woefully outgunned by their competition, and they'll die off.
 

zuca

Chimp
May 4, 2010
7
0
Hello,

It is oficcial
i saw it today in Portugal steve Peat riding is new carbon V10
only saw it 2 times passing no pictures and no talking,
saturday will be the Lisbon downtown and they will be there.
 

blackohio

Generous jaywalker
Mar 12, 2009
2,773
122
Hellafornia. Formerly stumptown.
I'd argue that it has the opposite effect, it hurts Nothern American businesses in the long run. What you do by supporting the idea that they can endlessly crank out the same "widgets" year after year is kill their ability to compete. Other businesses, and especially other countries, will invent new processes, use new materials, use new manufacturing techniques, and so on. The only constant in business is change, and the idea that you can endlessly crank out the same product year after year is just flat out insane. Right now, cheap labor drives the market, but what a company has to do is develop new processes, new ways to manage their resources, and so on. Maybe robots will eventually make all products and it won't matter what country it's done in, or maybe we'll do it first. The problem is that buying according to nationalistic prejudice does not support a free market. Meanwhile other markets are moving ahead and evolving, but you are essentially dooming your own businesses, because they will not have a reason to evolve and they will not be driven to compete. One day, they'll find themselves woefully outgunned by their competition, and they'll die off.
we have a winner here. Businesses need to earn the work.
 

HAB

Chelsea from Seattle
Apr 28, 2007
11,582
2,012
Seattle
Sorry for my English
It's not that bad. I had no trouble figuring out what you meant, which is more than I can say for plenty of other people on here, many of whom I suspect are native speakers.



I wouldn't discount the imperfect English. I mean, if the Syndicate's in Portugal, why would you expect everyone there to speak English flawlessly?



As for the carbon V-10 rumors, I've got no idea. Not going to add fuel to the fire.
 

zuca

Chimp
May 4, 2010
7
0
i think this weekend it will be revealed in the Lisbon downtown race.
I only saw it twice rolling down the hill so i cannot tell you more then this.
 

Santa Maria

Monkey
Aug 29, 2007
653
0
Austria
Ummm... I was more referring to the fact that this much guarded SC secret is suddenly revealed in broken english in a 1st post...

That kind of reliable source.



.
If you would like to answer in his native language, go ahead. Let me apologize for all us non native speakers for our bad english;)
 

Karve

Chimp
Aug 28, 2008
13
0
OOh wicked will be interesting to see what they come up with - V10 is a pretty sorted design so will have to go great guns to improve it :)
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,202
Ummm... I was more referring to the fact that this much guarded SC secret is suddenly revealed in broken english in a 1st post...

That kind of reliable source.

.
Probably more reliable and factual than half the posts on here from people with 1000+ posts.
 

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
well did it look like the current V10 or was it something different?

well he called it a carbon V10 so i'm guessing he felt it looked like...a carbon V10.

sorta like the carbon nomad...which looks like a carbon version of the nomad.

hope this helps. :weee:
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
well he called it a carbon V10 so i'm guessing he felt it looked like...a carbon V10.

sorta like the carbon nomad...which looks like a carbon version of the nomad.

hope this helps. :weee:
it could also be a evolution of the current V10. kind of like Intense does
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,752
442
MA
it could also be a evolution of the current V10. kind of like Intense does
Well der.

I think it's safe to say that a carbon V10 is an evolution of the current V10, no?


BTW, if they were like Intense this newest bike would be the V25∞/.333╥. Which wouldn't necessarily mean it's an evolution. It would just mean that there were 10 iterations of bikes between it and the 1st one with an evolutionary nomenclature. However all aspects of the bikes would have wildly different traits and performance features thrown across the board.
 

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
Well der.

I think it's safe to say that a carbon V10 is an evolution of the current V10, no?


BTW, if they were like Intense this newest bike would be the V25∞/.333╥. Which wouldn't necessarily mean it's an evolution. It would just mean that there were 10 iterations of bikes between it and the 1st one with an evolutionary nomenclature. However all aspects of the bikes would have wildly different traits and performance features thrown across the board.
hahaha. You bitch, but they're still fun to ride!
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,434
1,667
Warsaw :/
Don't know if it's been mentioned here but has anyone red the new dirt? The new v10 rumors are all over the issue. They even go as far and suggest it being carbon. Doubt that leaks are not controlled by sc.
 

p-spec

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2004
1,278
1
quebec
Cannot beleive there are no privateer photographers in portugal...epic loss.

its not ****ing carbon.

I refuse.