[pedalmunky]

Damn good find, ito. Is this legitimate enough for everyone? The evening news may not be the most perfect source of information, but I think we can all agree that the report displays neither a hidden pro-bike nor a pro-driver bias, right? And that one group of first-hand eyewitnesses (who, yes, are cyclists but who also seem to be forthright) saw the minivan knock down a rider, roll over his bike, and try to drive off. And in the interview with the driver, she said that she was trying to "weave through the bikes" in a panic because "There are CHILDREN in this car! *SOB* CHILDREN in this car!"

Inadvertently or not, this was an admission of guilt in my eyes. I don't care if you've got the dying Prince of Siam in an iron lung lying in your back seat, if cyclists surround your car and are riding past you, you've got the right to feel confused, or even frightened, but you DON'T have the right to panic, assault people with a one-ton motorized steel box, and then try to get away clean.

And, granted, nobody had the right to smash out her rear window, but if I was there I would've swarmed her car along with everyone else to prevent her from escaping accountability. And I would think that anyone here would do the same thing.

 

[LordOpie]

...if cyclists surround your car and are riding past you...

See, this is where the discussion continues to lose me.

You should be in your own lane, not riding past, not lane splitting. You should not be that close to another vehicle.

When I'm on the road and need to take a lane, I do it just like motorcyclists.

Motor or not, if you're lane splitting or otherwise not following the rules of the road, the responsibility for the situation becomes yours, 100%.

 

[bikesound]

Check you source, that was written in a blog. and Blogs are often slanted & or incorrect.

“With no injuries, we wouldn’t do a traffic-collision investigation anyway.”
- San Francisco police Sgt. Steve Mannina
http://www.examiner.com/a-657770~Newsom__Critical_Mass_should_police_itself.html

By the way, if you're so concerned with legitimate sources and fair and accurate reporting, the original piece in the SF Chronicle that stirred up the sensational "journalism" was a twisted gossip column piece written by long-time Critical Mass baiters and haters Matier and Ross.

 

[pigboy]

WTF you supporting theses critcal assholes? Theses turists were merley in the wrong place at the wrong time.

tourists? dude. these people live in a town that's about 30minutes away from San Francisco.

hooray for the uninformed!!!!

sucky about the minivan though. ::cries::

and speaking of thread hijacking, one time I saw this guy who was all kinds of about to die because a minivan turned left in front of his speeding motorcycle. He might have made it, but the EMTs rolled him over without stabilizing his spine and probably that was why he died.....

 

[OGRipper]

See, this is where the discussion continues to lose me.

You should be in your own lane, not riding past, not lane splitting. You should not be that close to another vehicle.

When I'm on the road and need to take a lane, I do it just like motorcyclists.

Motor or not, if you're lane splitting or otherwise not following the rules of the road, the responsibility for the situation becomes yours, 100%.

I disagree about the 100%. As in my example above, nobody is justified in opening fire on a group of cyclists staging a CM. It is a matter of degree, of comparative fault, and of judging the reasonableness of one's reaction to the situtation, regardless of who created it. The driver would get the benefit of the doubt for the reasons you state, but there is a line over which the driver becomes responsible as well.

 

[LordOpie]

I disagree about the 100%. As in my example above, nobody is justified in opening fire on a group of cyclists staging a CM. It is a matter of degree, of comparative fault, and of judging the reasonableness of one's reaction to the situtation, regardless of who created it. The driver would get the benefit of the doubt for the reasons you state, but there is a line over which the driver becomes responsible as well.

I'm not talking about CM. I'm talking about EVERY time you get on the road.

If you don't follow the rules of the road, then you're being unpredictable. And too bad for you.

Please remember that I'm a roadie first and I've even yelled at a cop to pull over cuz he told me over his loudspeaker that I couldn't take the lane. After 20 minutes of educating him and looking up the laws, he left better educated.

You split the lane, you over take cars in a manner that other cars wouldn't do, then the consequences are on you.


I do not like participating in large group rides as EVERY ride that I've been on with more than 30 people inevitably has some fvcktards doing idiotic sh!t.

Police your own before you crack down, chase down, surround or otherwise torment cagers.

 

[pedalmunky]

Hold up. Motorcyclists never split lanes? Ever been on a freeway during rush hour?

But that's not my point. If it was, say a pack of Sherman tanks streaming past her suv full of screaming children, then maybe I'd understand her response. But it was a bunch of people on bikes, who are a lot more vulnerable than tanks, or any other vehicle on the road. She tried to push her way through, got tangled up, and then tried to drive away. That just is not acceptable. Again, neither is smashing her rear window - and whoever did so oughtta man up and take the heat - but the driver acted wrongly. She just doesn't realize it, just as all the other motorists who cut me off to make a right turn, or almost door me when double-parked outside a Starbucks because they just wanna run in and grab a venti, or gun a left in front of me through a busy intersection when I've got the green because they only saw a gap in oncoming traffic, and not me.

They didn't know better.

They didn't see me.

They didn't mean to.

People oughtta learn.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

The CM crowd puts themselves at risk around motor vehicles, once again it's best to only ride off road. I'm sure the rider that was hit was at fault, I'm willing to bet anything on that one. They ride around in herds expecting people to wait for them, well F them all!!!! They give cyclist a bad name. CM means nothing to me, I need my vehicle to make my living, so the point they are trying to make falls to deaf ears in my world.


So there!!!!!



I seriously should run for ruler of the world

 

[LordOpie]

Hold up. Motorcyclists never split lanes? Ever been on a freeway during rush hour?

I ride a motor. I have split lanes. I've been down twice while riding my motor. I take 100% responsibility for going down.

She tried to push her way through...

She should not have needed to push anything. I'm not sure about this very specific situation, but I've seen similar and can imagine bikes riding close by and jumping in front. Ya know what, IF that's what happened, I'd drive over them too... and I'm a roadie.

She just doesn't realize it, just as all the other motorists who cut me off to make a right turn, or almost door me when double-parked outside a Starbucks because they just wanna run in and grab a venti, or gun a left in front of me through a busy intersection when I've got the green because they only saw a gap in oncoming traffic, and not me.

They didn't know better.

They didn't see me.

They didn't mean to.

People oughtta learn.

Perhaps there should be bicycle safety classes?

My motorcycle safety course that I take once in a blue moon continually states that you should ride as if you're invisible. YOU KNOW that cagers don't care. YOU KNOW they don't see you.

Yet, IF someone continues to put themselves in dangerous situation, then they need a friend to tell them to stop being stupid.


Educating cagers is all well and good, but right doesn't matter if you're a blood stain on the pavement.

 

[LordOpie]

I ride a motor. I have split lanes. I've been down twice while riding my motor. I take 100% responsibility for going down.

I forgot the point of that... in addition to taking responsibility for putting yourself in that situation, you also do not chase people down.

 

[LordOpie]

...once again it's best to only ride off road.

 

[Silver]

You split the lane, you over take cars in a manner that other cars wouldn't do, then the consequences are on you.


I do not like participating in large group rides as EVERY ride that I've been on with more than 30 people inevitably has some fvcktards doing idiotic sh!t.

Totally legal in California. I ride up the right side of the lane all the time at red lights, and then plant myself square in the middle of the lane in front of the car in front. I want them to notice me. It also has the added benefit of getting out in front at the green light and back to the shoulder before the cars get up to speed...if you don't go to the front of the line, that doesn't happen, and inevitably you get a motorist trying to gun it to get past you in order to cut you off and pinch you into the curb while he makes a right hand turn.

edit: Agree with you on the large groups. They quickly turn into the entire group acting like the biggest dip**** in the bunch...

 

[OGRipper]

Opie, I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it. If she didn't see the cyclist and her hitting him was truly an accident, then I agree it's the cyclist's responsibility. The accounts here are telling a different story. Regardless of who created the situation, it appears she intentionally hit someone and then tried to flee the scene. You are giving her a hall pass for some pretty scary conduct.

 

[pedalmunky]

Dude, so it's my fault? I'm undereducated? I'm being reckless?

I'm riding in the street, in control, at a rate of speed consistent with the rest of traffic. If I approach an intersection and there's an oncoming car trying to turn left, I raise up my hand and make eye contact and let the driver know I'm coming through. If they don't look at me and proceed to turn I feather the brakes (thank god for hydraulic discs) and swerve the hell outta there. How is that on me?

Literally everytime I almost get doored I skid to a stop and get off my bike, try to control my anger and breathing, and tell the driver to be more careful. Usually I get "I didn't see you," as though that absolves them of any wrong. I tell them to look before they open their doors, and that the reason that no one was hurt was due to me and not them. "Just do me a favor and try not to kill anyone today" is a nice pithy phrase I've come up with as I ride off. Arrogant, maybe, but I'm able to ride off. How is that my fault?

Yes there are a lot of unskilled cyclists out there but the consequences of rider error is injury to the CYCLIST and damage to the bike and/or car. If a driver doesn't see me and hits me there's no risk of physical damage to him. None. With this greater amount of responsibilty the onus is on the driver to take more care and to drive with more skill.

 

[Skookum]

Hold on there, Skookum, OG does have a point. I think it's irrefutable that if you gather up enough people you'll find yourself with a significant minority of idiots. You see it at concerts, political rallies, and sporting events. And in its perverse way, CM is all of the above. Your argument that soccer mobs are somehow more 'legitimate' because they happen to take place at a sanctioned event is ludicrous. No one is any more accountable when violence breaks out at a football match than if someone shatters a car window during a mass. Look at Italy - a policeman got murdered during a match, with no one in custody. But they didn't arrest the team owners for their 'responsibility' in the crime, did they?

Idiots act like idiots, and then they run away and hide. That's all there is to it. Hate the Mass for giving these people an excuse to act this way, but leave it at that.

There are waaaay more events that come off without a hitch where laws are not broken. Critical Mass the whole point is to break the law. To shock and resort to extraordinary means to get attention to gain publicity for cyclist rights.

Noble intentions but i maintain all you're doing is pissing people off and making the roads an even more dangerous place. You seem to buy into the notion that there are alot of idiots in the world, you admit even some within the ranks of CM. i maintain that idiots behind the wheel are much more dangerous, and employing multiple guerrilla tactics that CM does fuels the fire for drivers. Maybe not on that particular day but some other day, that may victimize a cyclist not even involved in CM.

My whole point is that the message is and will continue to be misconstrued. People within CM are creating rifts in public perception of cyclists from their own agenda, radical methods, and just downright civil disorder. Whether you think you have the right to hog the road with your gas guzzling SUV or a cycling enthusiast we all have the right to respect one another, and there are channels of action in advocacy that are better served for the safety of all persons.

Have the local cycling advocacy clubs adopt and legitamize CM. Schedule memorial rides around significant events like the death of a cyclist, or to promote passing of initiatives that are biker friendly.

Get a ****ing clue....

 

[Skookum]

Dude, so it's my fault? I'm undereducated? I'm being reckless?

I'm riding in the street, in control, at a rate of speed consistent with the rest of traffic. If I approach an intersection and there's an oncoming car trying to turn left, I raise up my hand and make eye contact and let the driver know I'm coming through. If they don't look at me and proceed to turn I feather the brakes (thank god for hydraulic discs) and swerve the hell outta there. How is that on me?

Literally everytime I almost get doored I skid to a stop and get off my bike, try to control my anger and breathing, and tell the driver to be more careful. Usually I get "I didn't see you," as though that absolves them of any wrong. I tell them to look before they open their doors, and that the reason that no one was hurt was due to me and not them. "Just do me a favor and try not to kill anyone today" is a nice pithy phrase I've come up with as I ride off. Arrogant, maybe, but I'm able to ride off. How is that my fault?

Yes there are a lot of unskilled cyclists out there but the consequences of rider error is injury to the CYCLIST and damage to the bike and/or car. If a driver doesn't see me and hits me there's no risk of physical damage to him. None. With this greater amount of responsibilty the onus is on the driver to take more care and to drive with more skill.

In my eyes, you certainly are more than justified to feel frustrated and angry. What do we choose to do with that, where do we go with what has been constructed.

Critical Mass has potential for great things, not just a ride to get power back.

Critical Mob...

 

[MikeD]

Get a ****ing clue....

Did skooks just get serious and frustrated instead of turning to whimsy?

Who are you on skooks' account, and what have you done with the real skookum?

 

[pedalmunky]

Guess we hit a nerve.

Lighten up, son.

 

[LordOpie]

Opie, I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

Again, I'm not talking about that situation cuz not only wasn't I there, I haven't even read news articles about it. So please take my comments in general I'm speaking strictly in hypotheticals.

Guess we hit a nerve.

Lighten up, son.

FYI, Skooks is a really laid back, well-loved guy. Just sayin'. If you want to fight with someone, choose me, cuz no one loves me. But if you go up against him, you'll get run off of RM

 

[Red Rabbit]

tourists? dude. these people live in a town that's about 30minutes away from San Francisco.

hooray for the uninformed!!!!

sucky about the minivan though. ::cries::

and speaking of thread hijacking, one time I saw this guy who was all kinds of about to die because a minivan turned left in front of his speeding motorcycle. He might have made it, but the EMTs rolled him over without stabilizing his spine and probably that was why he died.....

I addmitted being wrong to that statement

 

[pedalmunky]

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I thought this was just some grown folks having a discussion. Doesn't do anybody any good to take things personally.

 

[LordOpie]

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. I thought this was just some grown folks having a discussion. Doesn't do anybody any good to take things personally.

This is the internet. Good discussion always comes with flaming, sarcasm, fighting and make up sex.

 

[pedalmunky]

Haha. We oughtta leave this thread on this good note.

 

[sanjuro]

http://www.ktvu.com/video/11523434/detail.html

I enjoyed the sob story.

 

[stevew]

fighting and make up sex.

I'd want a visual verification first of who/what.

 

[Silver]

http://www.ktvu.com/video/11523434/detail.html

I enjoyed the sob story.

No charges...so that means someone got away with assault, and she got away with assault and battery.

She should really stop bitching...

 

[Skookum]

Guess we hit a nerve.

Lighten up, son.

No nerve hit, the funny thing about the internet is you don't know in what emotion the content is being offered in.

In your mind you may think i'm yelling on a soapbox.

No i actually thought i was being quite soft, making sense, and running on some good ideas.

When i say get a ****ing clue, that's just the roofer comin out in me, i don't mean anything about it and i was not directing it at you specifically at all.

Most of the time i will debate a point and will take my conversation directing it more towards the broad general audience after a few sentences.

So sorry i'm too lazy to add smilies to help clarify my tone, and i'm really not trying to pick on you. But i will shoot straight from time to time on something i give half a rats ass about.

Sorry MikeD for bein so "seer", i'll revert back to my normal e-persona when more threads about Eddie Van Halen pop up again.

 

[blue]

once again it's best to only ride off road.

Pipe down, chubs. Don't you drive a Yukon Denali with twelve ton wheels? Reminds me of the fun time I had today with some asshat in a lifted pickup lecturing me for running a deserted red light...moral priorities are a wee bit skewed.

CM is stupid. I won't participate in them around here (unless an alleycat is involved) for a variety of reasons, most of them stated here.

Normally I'd just pass the CM mentality off as "large groups always have minorities of morons", but in CMs case it seems to be reversed. I know a few guys who participate that are really chill, ride, and actually believe in what they're doing out there, but they're the minority. To be blatantly stereotypical, 80% of the people that show up are douchebags. By RM standards, they aren't cyclists. They might ride a few times a month (on the obligatory $25 bike collective fixie), and when they do, it's to the local hipster coffee shop four blocks away. They're "counter-culture" and feast on crap like this, anything that makes it look like they go against the norm.

CM could be something cool and useful, but faux bike messenger is "in" right now and shoots that all to hell...I hope someday that changes.

In this specific incident, who was at fault is not at issue - what IS at issue is the giant clusterfvck CM has become.

Sorry - I get a little bitter when people who barely ride lecture me for riding a bike with gears...

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Pipe down, chubs. Don't you drive a Yukon Denali with twelve ton wheels? Reminds me of the fun time I had today with some asshat in a lifted pickup lecturing me for running a deserted red light...moral priorities are a wee bit skewed.

CM is stupid. I won't participate in them around here (unless an alleycat is involved) for a variety of reasons, most of them stated here.

Normally I'd just pass the CM mentality off as "large groups always have minorities of morons", but in CMs case it seems to be reversed. I know a few guys who participate that are really chill, ride, and actually believe in what they're doing out there, but they're the minority. To be blatantly stereotypical, 80% of the people that show up are douchebags. By RM standards, they aren't cyclists. They might ride a few times a month (on the obligatory $25 bike collective fixie), and when they do, it's to the local hipster coffee shop four blocks away. They're "counter-culture" and feast on crap like this, anything that makes it look like they go against the norm.

CM could be something cool and useful, but faux bike messenger is "in" right now and shoots that all to hell...I hope someday that changes.

In this specific incident, who was at fault is not at issue - what IS at issue is the giant clusterfvck CM has become.

Sorry - I get a little bitter when people who barely ride lecture me for riding a bike with gears...

Calm down little man, when I first started MTBing you were still swimming around in your daddy's sack. Keep in mind I'm probably 23 years OLDER than you. So what if I drive a Denali (actually it's my wife's, I have a full size Chevy truck). If you in fact ran a red light, you broke the law. I wish you got a ticket for that one. At least I'm not the one who spent a lot of money on a new engine for a car worth $75 and then wants to spend $8 a gallon on gas .

And for the barely rides comment, I work 2 F'n jobs (one is a side job), have 2 kids in which I have to take to soccer & baseball. That leaves me little time to ride in which I try to ride every other Saturday (XC and or DH), or hit the local BMX track for fun. Unfortunately little boy as you get older you have less time to do what you love as there are other responsibilities happening. Just a fact of life my son.

 

[OGRipper]

Blue, I disagree with your 80% notion and the idea that the Mass should be exclusive to "serious" cyclists (see comments on that above). I also disagree with anyone who wants to make this a personal thing. It's an unnecessary tactic for those who can't make an intelligent point.

(Don't take it personally. :biggrin: )

 

[V-Dub GTI]

It seems that the cyclists tried to stopp the car before she completly ran the bike over. It sounds like the getting in frount of her and hitting the windsheild was trying to stop her. The guy that threw the bike through the rear windsheild was probally just freaked out from all the yelling. And thought the car was on someone or something.




P.S I was not there.

 

[syadasti]

And for the barely rides comment, I work 2 F'n jobs (one is a side job), have 2 kids in which I have to take to soccer & baseball. That leaves me little time to ride in which I try to ride every other Saturday (XC and or DH), or hit the local BMX track for fun. Unfortunately little boy as you get older you have less time to do what you love as there are other responsibilities happening. Just a fact of life my son.

Thats no excuse for your opinion or actions. My friend/fellow employee has three kids and his wife runs a nationwide (Puerto Rico and Canada too) company with over 300 people on the payroll and there have other companies under her control. He has a custom web based mobile quality control application he develops/supports for almost 100 users in the field. He finds plenty of time to ride - he has BMX roots and most often you'll find him at the local DJs on a 26 frame and handlebars he helped design himself.

I ride to work whenever the weather is somewhat decent (ie not too wet and over 40F). After seeing me ride to work last year he too rides to work now on a SS Kona city bike (blue, he has a S4 BTW). We have every right to use the road and too bad if you have to slow down a little on your way to get donuts/fast food/coffee/beer chubby - its everyone's road, we all pay for it.

I don't ride on the road for fun or training but I use to when I lived in Ithaca. I still have every right you do to use it to commute to work safely. Both of us have found we get to work quicker (or about the same time) on the bike than the car due to the heavy traffic in the area.

 

[ito]

Thats no excuse for your opinion or actions.

How high is your horse? Not saying I disagree with your points, but petty personal attacks just stink up this thread.

I keep imagining that this all went down like the street fight scene from Ron Burgundy.

"Boy that escalated quickly...I mean that got out of hand fast"
"Ya, there was fire and horse and I killed a guy with a trident"
"Ya, I threw a bike through the back of a mini-van"

Maybe things are a bit different in SLC, but I know a lot of the folks who ride CM in SF and everyone I know is a fairly serious cyclist. Maybe not in the same vein that RM people are, but they commute and the work on bikes and they are active and recognizable members in a local bike community (not just one that thrives online). So ya, there are a lot of serious cyclists in the CM movement.

I do think that this is a prime chance for the Bike Coalition in the Bay Area to take hold of CM and make it something like it used to be. Rather than getting scared and worried about how badly this will effect public opinion of cyclists the Bike Coalition should be working on re-working it into something that has a purpose. Make it purposeful and you'll weed out most of the drunks and idiots who want to fight and you'll get more of the people who will work to make a difference.

The Ito

 

[syadasti]

How high is your horse?

He has no right to hog the road and say cyclists are second class. I am not talking about CM or this CM incident, I am talking about commuting to work. He has no more right to the road than you or me whatever vehicle you use. His attitude is bull****.

I'm also not lecturing to blue that my age makes my excuse more important than his either, so whats wrong with knocking him off his horse...

 

[blue]

At least I'm not the one who spent a lot of money on a new engine for a car worth $75 and then wants to spend $8 a gallon on gas .

'Cept I drive it 20-50 miles a week, don't mind working on it, and it's a blast to drive...speaking of which, it's even dead right now!

And for the barely rides comment, I work 2 F'n jobs (one is a side job), have 2 kids in which I have to take to soccer & baseball. That leaves me little time to ride in which I try to ride every other Saturday (XC and or DH), or hit the local BMX track for fun. Unfortunately little boy as you get older you have less time to do what you love as there are other responsibilities happening. Just a fact of life my son.

Please don't belittle me by telling me I don't have responsibilities, simply because I'm 19 years old. I work, I pay all my bills, does this not make me (by the standards of our society), carrying "responsibilities"?

Perhaps I'm just young and naive, but if you can't make time to do the things you love in life on a regular basis, what's the point of living?

Back to CM...

I think SLC is very different. The counter-culture the Mormons spawn is very off the wall and extreme. Like I said, any chance these people get to look different (specifically from the conservative LDS people that dominate the state), they will take it. This includes riding in a CM, even if they don't ride, as most inhabitants here have the attitude of Brian.

 

[sanjuro]

Calm down little man, when I first started MTBing you were still swimming around in your daddy's sack. Keep in mind I'm probably 23 years OLDER than you. So what if I drive a Denali (actually it's my wife's, I have a full size Chevy truck). If you in fact ran a red light, you broke the law. I wish you got a ticket for that one. At least I'm not the one who spent a lot of money on a new engine for a car worth $75 and then wants to spend $8 a gallon on gas .

And for the barely rides comment, I work 2 F'n jobs (one is a side job), have 2 kids in which I have to take to soccer & baseball. That leaves me little time to ride in which I try to ride every other Saturday (XC and or DH), or hit the local BMX track for fun. Unfortunately little boy as you get older you have less time to do what you love as there are other responsibilities happening. Just a fact of life my son.

All I can say is during the next Danville Critical Mass, the Thanksgiving Day Road Ride, I am going crazy on every yuppie I see.

 

[pedalmunky]

When i say get a ****ing clue, that's just the roofer comin out in me, i don't mean anything about it and i was not directing it at you specifically at all.

'ey, no worries, Skooks, we're all good.

 

[Del]

 

[ridetoofast]

Please review pages 1-8 and noticed how all you ludicrous points are slammed down like Iraq war funding.( well ok, Like Iraq war funding should be slammed down

i tried
i WEALLY WEALLY TWIED to make it to the end of the thread before i posted

but oh dear GOD do you need a sarcasm detector wabbit.
that and you are a n00b so you clearly do not get stinkys humor...

 

[MikeD]

So what about women in frontline Critical Mass situations? Hmmm?