Proper Pics of the GIANT GLORY 09!!!!
Just cuz the links look different doesn't mean the monkey motion isn't similar.
I am more concerned with his ready acceptance, almost promotion of theft which is the issue I responded to.
As an engineer, then you should be moreso aware of the minutiae and core differences that make something different seem similar to a lay person; Patents are NOT irrelevant, and while I am not an engineer I will leave you with this:
Horst Link
Insignificant or the source of truckloads of money for big S? B***S*** patent?
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You sir are what makes the internet such a wonderfull place to converse. Very easy for you to sit behind your computer and talk all E-hard. Anyhow.......I did read the whole thread and at that point was getting sick of hearing a bunch of un-informed Fan boys wimper about a bike looking like another bike. I clearly stated that I wanted to see proof supporting this claim. I haven't read the Patent........but how many DW supporters in this thread have????
You need suppress that narcisistic rage and go ride your bike.
Just read the patent.
However I would buy the new giant, especilally if it will be the same system with new dw -bikes-if you want to order a sunday here, you only had limited time in spring to make a pre order(2 weeks or something), pay something totally overpriced here (sundays are cheap in US), then wait for it, without any chance to make an actual test of the bike. But damn all that could be also said for Yeti-cycles
And we also know that all bunch of bike companies were ripped off by companies like cannondale, trek, etc...Anyway I agree with you about the people who owned giants and are full of hate now. I guess they didn't know that they were riding the dw-link all the time :biggrin:
That is a dumb way of thinking, of course their is money in patenting the DW link, DW also makes money off his patent buy selling the companies who are willing to pay the rights to use the DW link. Independent Fabrication, Iron Horse, Ibis and Pivot Cycles had no problem paying, but Giant played the asshole role and used his link without paying. What I find weird is that if the two links are so similar, how has Giant been able to patent an already patented design with only changing the name?So why apply for patents in the first place then?
DW seems to patent everything he does, but if he hasn't the funds to go to court and protect his rights why not save the money in the first place?
I think we are not told the whole story here.
Now that is a brilliant question I would like to hear the answer to.
The USPTO issues many patents that may not be technically valid. It's not the name that's been patented, I guarantee you that it is more technical than that.
I thought the glory whole thing was Giant's way around the patent issued, and it's diff. axle path blah blah.
Apparently patents are like songs or music. If you change one note of a line then it is not the exact same line or song?
Is that what is happening here? Reminds me of Vanilla Ice... "No Queens song was ding ding ding ding tic a ding ding". Ice Ice baby is ding dung ding tada ding ding!
Apparently patents are like songs or music. If you change one note of a line then it is not the exact same line or song?
Is that what is happening here? Reminds me of Vanilla Ice... "No Queens song was ding ding ding ding tic a ding ding". Ice Ice baby is ding dung ding tada ding ding!
Agreed, i'd be pretty pissed about it too, however like most on here who have downloaded movies, tv shows, mp3s etc, we're all hypocrites, its a sad way the world is going, but perhaps its time for things to evolve?
Man this must be the fastest growing thread I can remember!
I really dont get it - the '09 glory and Sunday are not the same! They have different axle paths, different squat curves, different braking characteristics, and different leverage ratio curves just to name the most basic differences people will note! This is somewhat obviously from just noting the orientation of the linkage mounting points. OK so I can't give you specifics, but they are different enough to say the qualitys listed above are not the same.
What is really happening here is marketing shift. The new giant LOOKS somewhat similar to the former Sunday (even on its own, I think the '09 glory looks Siccckkkkkk). People are typically simple and oriented to visual characteristics. The new glory looks like the sunday so people will buy it based on the sunday's marketing tradeoff.
Or not, who knows. All I know is that there IS a difference between the former meastro and DW suspension for DH, as I have ridden both. Is it a bad difference? No. It's just a difference like every other damn bike out there. If they were all the same they'd be boring. Despite how similar the glory looks to the sunday, until it actually uses the same exact geometry and suspension, its still not a sunday! I love how people can get so e-hyped over stupid visual characteristics.
I really dont get it - the '09 glory and Sunday are not the same! They have different axle paths, different squat curves, different braking characteristics, and different leverage ratio curves just to name the most basic differences people will note! This is somewhat obviously from just noting the orientation of the linkage mounting points. OK so I can't give you specifics, but they are different enough to say the qualitys listed above are not the same.
What is really happening here is marketing shift. The new giant LOOKS somewhat similar to the former Sunday (even on its own, I think the '09 glory looks Siccckkkkkk). People are typically simple and oriented to visual characteristics. The new glory looks like the sunday so people will buy it based on the sunday's marketing tradeoff.
Or not, who knows. All I know is that there IS a difference between the former meastro and DW suspension for DH, as I have ridden both. Is it a bad difference? No. It's just a difference like every other damn bike out there. If they were all the same they'd be boring. Despite how similar the glory looks to the sunday, until it actually uses the same exact geometry and suspension, its still not a sunday! I love how people can get so e-hyped over stupid visual characteristics.
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Ugh, come to New Zealand, a Sunday is about twice as expensive as a glory, it really sucks!However I would buy the new giant, especilally if it will be the same system with new dw -bikes-if you want to order a sunday here, you only had limited time in spring to make a pre order(2 weeks or something), pay something totally overpriced here (sundays are cheap in US), then wait for it, without any chance to make an actual test of the bike. But damn all that could be also said for Yeti-cycles
Anyway I agree with you about the people who owned giants and are full of hate now. I guess they didn't know that they were riding the dw-link all the time :biggrin:
Why does every discussion become personal somehow - rather than address the topic at hand, out come the 'fan boy' comments.
For the record I dont own any DW link bikes, only 1 VPP and an SP.
Why people are trying so hard to rationalize patent infringement is beyond me. Do you dislike DW? or are 'pro-Giant'? Or just enjoy being contrary?
This issue is several years old and predates any similarities between the 09 Glory and Sunday by about 4 years.
For the record I dont own any DW link bikes, only 1 VPP and an SP.
Why people are trying so hard to rationalize patent infringement is beyond me. Do you dislike DW? or are 'pro-Giant'? Or just enjoy being contrary?
This issue is several years old and predates any similarities between the 09 Glory and Sunday by about 4 years.
By staying ahead of everyone else instead of trying to push back or hinder everyone else. Industries compete and evolve around themselves and past one another. This is progress.
Ohhhhh yes it is, and to a level far greater and far more intricate (and probably better documented/substantiated).
You walked out of your job holding your check and let someone drive up and take it? That sounds like a personal problem...perhaps you are unhappy you own a small cheap truck/car?? F fancy trucks anyway...
In all seriousness though, irrelevant analogy. You make it sound as if the are tapping right into your bank accounts for funds directly and immediately earned.
Now if you said this: "You work hard, get your paycheck, leave job, expect royalties or sales dividends from your work, and someone cockblocks those royalties", then MAYBE you'd have a relevant analogy.
Honestly, the patent game isn't a fun one, and 9 times out of 10 it isn't worth even trying to obtain the patent unless you are 100% prepared and capable to fight tooth and nail to defend it, because if it is something worth patenting, you will probably have to. That just comes with the territory. Where there's a will, there's a way, and where there's a way, there's an asshole IN your way. At the end of the day, it's just some damn bikes...
Mechanically speaking a DW link or Maestro fits into this category as well. The member that contains the rear axle is separated from the front triangle from two links (no direct pivot). Again from the mechanical standpoint the lower link on a DW link/Maestro could be construed as just a short chainstay in an FSR system...
That's pretty much it....but it would sure make a robust case for Giant to be DIRECTLY ripping off the Sunday design, wouldn't it?? God that would be sensational....almost enough to get the Ridemonkey crew sent into a 10 page frenzy in the first day of the rumors existence!! Perhaps someone is bitter that they avoided the patent laws and came up with a workable design that was similar??? Nothing like a vicious rumor that is too technical and debateable to completely disprove to hurt the competitors reputation before the product is even finalized or released....
So, I have been reading this thread for the last hour or so, been looking at the IH site, and the giant site, old bikes and new bikes. heard the discussions back and forth for some time now. And here is my humble opinion. I am not a fan of either bike, they are both well built, but not for me, yes, I have ridden both, not the 09's but 08's. Ok with that statement out of the way......
In past years, Without reading patents, I have been able to pick out the minute differences that push Giant just far enough to not be violating a patent, the pics of the 09, the only differences I can now see, is the actual shape of the lower link, and the angle of the rockers. This version from Giant I need to sit down, and read through the patent, and search for any of the "Minute" differences. If it isnt a straight up copy, its pretty damned close.
DW, I hope everything gets sorted out, I wish you luck, and offer this advice. Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst.
In past years, Without reading patents, I have been able to pick out the minute differences that push Giant just far enough to not be violating a patent, the pics of the 09, the only differences I can now see, is the actual shape of the lower link, and the angle of the rockers. This version from Giant I need to sit down, and read through the patent, and search for any of the "Minute" differences. If it isnt a straight up copy, its pretty damned close.
DW, I hope everything gets sorted out, I wish you luck, and offer this advice. Hope for the best, Prepare for the worst.
No, your attitude is exactly whats wrong with the world today, the world SHOULD be open source. Business and money are what is holding technology back, ever wonder why lots of technical advancements are made during desperate war times, because money doesn't matter then! Life isn't all about money, if you truly love mountain biking then you would be stoked that your design is being used by a company that has a better capability to get it to the masses then you do, regardless of whether or not your getting paid for it. Great thinkers often SACRIFICE themselves for their work, you should be stoked that Giant is giving access to an awesome suspension design to a very broad audience so more people can enjoy cycling. Problem is too many people in this industry aren't willing to make sacrifices to move the sport along, instead they think the sport should make sacrifices to them, I mean what type of person that truly loves this sport would hold an awesome design back from people just because they aren't making royalties off it?
Its a changing world and just having ideas isn't enough to make a living anymore, you have to get creative. Having someone ripoff your idea and then to come say it sucks on the internet is pretty much as lame as when musicians get pissed off that their music is getting distributed for free online. The world needs to advance and SHARING ideas is what is going to do it for us. If you are really the engineering genius everybody makes you out to be then having big name companies take your designs shouldn't even be a bump in the road but instead a compliment and reassurance that you are going in the right direction. Unfortunately the mountain bike industry is filled with so many cheapskates who (I understand why, obviously gotta put food on the table, but still) act like any loss of profit means they are heading in the wrong direction.
The world and the mountain bike industry needs more creative thinkers and less engineers and businessmen, I don't wanna sound like I'm complaining but the mountain bike industry is the pinnacle of greed and technology hording and I think companies like Giant are doing a really good job of saying f-off we want people to ride good bikes and aren't afraid to play on the edge to do it, and if they make a few bucks along the way then they have learned how to work smart and not work hard. Good for them, they've adapted and learned how to evolve with times (thats why they are successful), you gotta show that you can do the same instead of filing patent claims and clinging to your '15 minutes of fame' suspension design that you came up with years ago. If you can't find a way to make money in this industry other then clinging to one design and trying to contract it out to a few small companies then the industry would probably be better off without you and the dw-link. Bikes are bikes, sure dw link is great but it would be a lot better for the sport to gain some creativity and open minded thinkers as opposed to a few clever designs and a lot of cumbersome business technicalities to go along with them.
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^^^ Lololololololol
there will be 09 Sundays with a DW link.....
So is it ok to steal from you?
How exactly are anyone gonna design a new types of bikes and components if they aren't getting paid? Do you know how much it costs to get an education? Creative thinkers? Wtf? You can't just freestyle up a good bike in your mind without experience. You need education, preferably in engineering if you are gonna make a bike. To afford this you need money. To afford living after your education you need money to be able to be creative. You can't just spit out an awesome idea in 5 minutes. We are talking about months of research at the very least. Wake up and smell the coffee. You live in a dreamworld.
It's not like he is asking for too much. He just wants to get payed for what he did. If Giant took his design that is wrong, especially since Giant have the funds to pay.
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Bryman....nowhere in your rambling incoherent response did you come close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. We are all dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.
So basically you're saying that instead of companies thinking 'Hey, why didn't we think of that, lets think of something even better!" they should be thinking "Hey, why should we think of that (and spend our R&D $) when we can let someone else think of it for us! (and not pay them)" BRILLIANT!
Its called intellectual property.
Sweet, I just started a bike company. The frame designers are liberal arts majors using Microsoft Paint for all engineering and FEA, and my Marketing & Sales team is run by 16 yr olds hired straight from Pinkbike. I'll put you down for 3 bikes now just to save time.
So basically you're saying that instead of companies thinking 'Hey, why didn't we think of that, lets think of something even better!" they should be thinking "Hey, why should we think of that (and spend our R&D $) when we can let someone else think of it for us! (and not pay them)" BRILLIANT!
Its called intellectual property.
No doubt.
stupid has reached new heights in this thread
bryman1999: what do you do for a living?
Yeah but I can't afford to pay you since all my $ is going towards legal fees now. Huffy already stole your design and is marketing the same bike, except they're using TWO rockets instead of one.so after reading byman1999's post, i decied to forget that i am engineer and become a designer. Noone needs engineers anymore. check out my new suspension design.
ninjia edit: I now work for gunner!!!!!
Need a mechanical design engineer?!?!!? CAN I APPLY?!?!?!? I kick wicked ass in MS paint. My years of Solidworks experience carried over nicely. Sure my toolbars are a bit different and hard to get used to, but I make it work. OH! I kick ass at Excel too. I can create spreadsheets that will automatically calculate stresses based on the color hue used in MS paint. Works all the time 60% of the time.so after reading byman1999's post, i decied to forget that i am engineer and become a designer. Noone needs engineers anymore. check out my new suspension design.
ninjia edit: I now work for gunner!!!!!
I already have an idea for a frame. It utilizes my "WWDWD?" (what would dave weagle do?) suspension system.
I get your point byman1999, it would be a beautiful world wouldn't it? there is only one big problem. giant is taking profits for it. so they should take part of that profit an give it to DW. now, if Giant decides to start giving the new glory away for free, then, and only then your statement would make perfect sense.
Gunner: I am a Bike Designer, and I am willing to work for free, I do not need food on my table and I barely drink water. I will work an 18 hours shift if you give me a 15 minutes break at mid day to take a dump.
were can I send my curriculum vitae / resume to apply to gunner bicycle company
Gunner: I am a Bike Designer, and I am willing to work for free, I do not need food on my table and I barely drink water. I will work an 18 hours shift if you give me a 15 minutes break at mid day to take a dump.
were can I send my curriculum vitae / resume to apply to gunner bicycle company
You can also create thermal gradiants with the air-brush tool.
Yep bud u know me down to the ground... So im guessing now that you have been to England come to my house and spent years with me growing up!!!
No you havent!! Dont talk stuff you cant prove.
We are entitled to our thoughts, and i can say what i feel..
LOL you were %100 off base, i think we should take this to the play ground and sort this out!!
Ive scanned through most of this thread.
I support DW if in fact there is a patent violation and think that it is real ****ty that bigger companies decide to simply steal ideas rather than hire the designers or buy their ideas for reasonable compensation. However, I am not a patent attorney, nor do I have the time, resources, or education to go through the patents.
How bout specific documented points from the two sides that show how this is or is not a violation of Dave's design? Can someone do a side by side comparison, clearly and in plain english, showing how the designs conflict or not?
I realize this thread might have turned to a bit of a ****show and DW may be avoiding getting deeper into the quag, but a formalized response, showing the violation, would be great.
So.....how bout it? Let's see the proof.
I support DW if in fact there is a patent violation and think that it is real ****ty that bigger companies decide to simply steal ideas rather than hire the designers or buy their ideas for reasonable compensation. However, I am not a patent attorney, nor do I have the time, resources, or education to go through the patents.
How bout specific documented points from the two sides that show how this is or is not a violation of Dave's design? Can someone do a side by side comparison, clearly and in plain english, showing how the designs conflict or not?
I realize this thread might have turned to a bit of a ****show and DW may be avoiding getting deeper into the quag, but a formalized response, showing the violation, would be great.
So.....how bout it? Let's see the proof.
You sir are an idiot and I wonder what in the hell you do for work. Lets do away with all copyrights as well and embrace piracy on all levels. Lets make it so that no one gets paid for what they have accomplished. Something tells me you have a future in traffic management.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand ridemonkey has officially reached pink bike status.
Perhaps this would work on a bike commune. We could all work off each others ideas synergetically and create something great. Fortunately no one needs to make any money since the goat cheese is plentiful and the garden is bountiful. Then we could roll up a joint and use a 20 dollar bill to light it since we have risen above material aspirations. Until that day comes, you shouldn't have to sacrifice making a living because you want to give back to the collective mountain bike community. Giant isn't ripping off Dave because of some idealistic idea that they are bringing great bikes to the masses. Last I checked they were not a non-profit company. Your attitude has striking similarities to communism fyi...
I could'a sworn communism was open source.
fwiw I have a glory, but what this thread seems to be coming down to is the group who says "its wrong" the group who says "I don't really care, but thats not really cool" and the group who almost certainly have giants, love them, love the fact that they got them at a cheaper price then a dw link bike, and are trying to rationalize it.
I've been ok with giant because dw and meastro have different ride characteristics. Yes, they feel more alike then most suspension setups (or any that i've ever ridden), but they still definitely have a distinguished feel. I'm not sure if this one still keeps that distinguished feel, but its one thing to be inspired by a design and to make something similar, and its another thing to try and make your bike look exactly the same as another bike and copy it. Nobody really knows how the new glory rides besides the few who have ridden it, but this seems a direct copy of the frame design, if not the linkage. Just seems kinda lame since dw worked his ass off for that and then giant copies it.
I guess we'll see what happens.
I've been ok with giant because dw and meastro have different ride characteristics. Yes, they feel more alike then most suspension setups (or any that i've ever ridden), but they still definitely have a distinguished feel. I'm not sure if this one still keeps that distinguished feel, but its one thing to be inspired by a design and to make something similar, and its another thing to try and make your bike look exactly the same as another bike and copy it. Nobody really knows how the new glory rides besides the few who have ridden it, but this seems a direct copy of the frame design, if not the linkage. Just seems kinda lame since dw worked his ass off for that and then giant copies it.
I guess we'll see what happens.