When doing a head gasket is usually requires a valve job at the same time.
The Bad Head Gasket Thread - or, "How fvcked is H8R?"
- Thread starter H8R
- Start date
wow, really stuck in the whole butt hurt idea huh?Then why are you so butthurt over this?
I dont know..... maybe because I have a hard time explaining to customers that their car really isnt broken, just the jackass that told you its broken is actually whats broken.Then why are you so butthurt over this?
Its just frustrating in this line of business, specially when I am the one in teh shop that has to handle it when this happens, when people just jump to a conclusion as to whats wrong to only find they went WAY complicated, huge repair, sold it, did the repair, only to find the problem still exists because they didnt take the time to check the basics before going advanced.
Oh and for the record.... with that many miles, replacing the head gaskets, machining the heads properly, doing a valve job........... at that time you would be wasting your money with this many miles< If it is indeed a head gasket> Ill wager if you do go through with that much work, Ill give it eight months before the bottom end lets go..... wonderfull thing, bringing up the compression elvels on an old engine, amazing how that ends up working out.
FWIW, those engines are actually decently priced for rebuilts.
Must spread rep!!!
You too?
Here's the scoop, dude. I'm just giving H8R $hit 'cause I warned him about this a year ago. I've been through it. As long as the car has been well maintained it's not really that big of a deal. It's a well known, wide-spread problem with that vintage car. He caught it early and my bet is that with a sub-1K gasket fix he'll be golden. The shop that did mine said those 2.5l motors are generally REALLY solid... EXCEPT for this head gasket problem. Fix it and drive it for another 100K.
He can have all that stuff done that you suggested... and it's probably a good idea. But this is THE 2.5l Subaru head gasket issue. I'd bet my reputation on it.
I'd bet my reputation on it.
BTW the golden banana does make you reputable. :mamba:
Skaredsh*thead knows so much about these cars, it's obvious that he's a lesbian. 
So with all this talk about the '96-'01 having problems, i'm golden with my '02 2.5l with 135k miles right? 
Oh and H8R, I think it's time to try it now!
Oh and H8R, I think it's time to try it now!
Man... take a road trip to Colorado. Have the fix done here:
http://www.summitauto.us/
Here's what I got for $1600:
Both head gaskets
Clutch, pressure plate, throwout bearing
Timing belt
New plugs
All 4 cam seals
Front & rear main seals
Intake gaskets
Valve cover gaskets
Thermostat
Seriously.
My wife bought it back in '97. Not me.Skaredsh*thead knows so much about these cars, it's obvious that he's a lesbian.
Hold on...
Wait a second!
Hmmm... maybe. Maybe not. http://www.subaruheadgasket.com/0003.htmSo with all this talk about the '96-'01 having problems, i'm golden with my '02 2.5l with 135k miles right?
I had to research this to death last summer, before I did my HG repair...
The answer is, you might be...an '02 falls right on the manufacture date when Subaru made changes to the Head Gasket materials. There are two known set of sets of Subaru head gasket issues that are associated with Phase 1 & phase 2 Subaru 2.5 liter normally aspirated (non turbo) engines.
Your 2002 is a SOHC (Phase 2) 2.5 engine, and thus may fall into the WWP-99 service campaign Subaru issued back in '04. Or you may just get lucky, and have the newer HG.
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I think I'll just go with the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" method and try not to worry about it. But next time I go by the dealership I will definitely ask them about it. Rep+ to both you guys for warning me though
Just keep an eye on the antifreeze... when it starts to look not-so-greenish and more a green-brownish... have it checked.I think I'll just go with the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" method and try not to worry about it. But next time I go by the dealership I will definitely ask them about it. Rep+ to both you guys for warning me though
if/when you get the HG's replaced, make sure they use the updated multi layer steel(MLS) which are more modern and much more durable than the old fiber style.
the whole subaru 2.5L head gasket issue that everyone is so up in arms about is kinda funny. if it were a ford or a chevy or something nobody would bat an eye that a motor needed head gaskets at 100 or 120k. but then again it is a subaru not a ford or chevy.
that said, the EJ25's bore is a very large(99.6mm) bore with 79mm stroke which is pretty damn oversquare. it also has a very short rod due to deck hieght restrictions, given the displacement of the motor. big heavy pistons and lots of angular momentum from the short rod combined with an open deck block, the cylinder is sort of shaken, moving independently from the outer block, which wears out the head gasket over time. on the smaller bore and stroke ej's such as the ej22e which is also open deck, these forces are smaller so they are less prone to fatiguing the head gasket. open deck just means that there is little to no webbing between the inner part of the block(the cylinders) and the outer block.
people do swap ej22e's into the 2.5 cars, and it's a good cost effective option and nearly a straight swap. however it wouldn't be my first choice due to the decrease in power and being a lesser motor in other ways. you're dropping several hp without much if any mpg gains for some sort of percieved reliability increase. a 2.5 with MLS headgaskets is plenty solid and as reliable as an ej22.
the whole subaru 2.5L head gasket issue that everyone is so up in arms about is kinda funny. if it were a ford or a chevy or something nobody would bat an eye that a motor needed head gaskets at 100 or 120k. but then again it is a subaru not a ford or chevy.
that said, the EJ25's bore is a very large(99.6mm) bore with 79mm stroke which is pretty damn oversquare. it also has a very short rod due to deck hieght restrictions, given the displacement of the motor. big heavy pistons and lots of angular momentum from the short rod combined with an open deck block, the cylinder is sort of shaken, moving independently from the outer block, which wears out the head gasket over time. on the smaller bore and stroke ej's such as the ej22e which is also open deck, these forces are smaller so they are less prone to fatiguing the head gasket. open deck just means that there is little to no webbing between the inner part of the block(the cylinders) and the outer block.
people do swap ej22e's into the 2.5 cars, and it's a good cost effective option and nearly a straight swap. however it wouldn't be my first choice due to the decrease in power and being a lesser motor in other ways. you're dropping several hp without much if any mpg gains for some sort of percieved reliability increase. a 2.5 with MLS headgaskets is plenty solid and as reliable as an ej22.
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Right there is two things that are not going to happen.
yeah i wouldnt put 500 into your car either haha.
And by "new" I mean something with less than 50K miles.I can't afford a new car either, man. Fortunately I am only looking at 300 - 500 in repairs to my car so it will pass smog.
Good luck with the car. Car troubles are a pain in the ass. (Ahhhh... that's why SS is butt hurt!)
Ok, here is another scoop for you.... Just because you've been through it doesnt mean this is exactly how any and all of these models will go down........ Oh and Sub 1K... no way at a reputable shop.Here's the scoop, dude. I'm just giving H8R $hit 'cause I warned him about this a year ago. I've been through it. As long as the car has been well maintained it's not really that big of a deal. It's a well known, wide-spread problem with that vintage car. He caught it early and my bet is that with a sub-1K gasket fix he'll be golden. The shop that did mine said those 2.5l motors are generally REALLY solid... EXCEPT for this head gasket problem. Fix it and drive it for another 100K.
He can have all that stuff done that you suggested... and it's probably a good idea. But this is THE 2.5l Subaru head gasket issue. I'd bet my reputation on it.
Figure machine work at 100-300 per head depending on if the valves are in need of work or replacement, plus the resurfacing of the heads<If one gets done, the other does too!!!> So 200 to 600 right there
Gasket set at 250 to 300 so that brings it to 450 or 900,
labor<not sure how much right off hand>at a reputable shop is usually 85 to a hundred dollars
Timing belt at 49 to 75 dollars<not sure off hand if this one had one or two>
timing belt tensioners at a couple hundred dollars for all of them, not to mention a good shop wont do head gaskets without replacing the radiator as well, add three hundred give or take for incidentals along the way........Im pretty sure I am not missing anything.......Oh other than everything I read up on these they all started a headgasket problem with overheating.
H8r, Seriously, call a local shop, tell them you have sludge in the coolant.... dont mention anything about the head gaskets. Let them check it properly. Wouldnt it be great to be able to throw it back it SS's face that its not a head gasket?
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FWIW, when I did my HG's, I searched around for a cheaper OEM parts channel to get away from the dealer prices and found this place: www.1stsubaruparts.com. If it helps, here are my parts costs (ALL OEM PARTS), all purchased back in May 09.
Head Gasket Set:$58.96
Timing Belt: $64.76
Tensioner: $107.96
WaterPump: $129.95
Shipping and no tax beat the dealer prices by $75 for the same stuff
Machine shop was like 100.00, to deck & check both heads.
Head Gasket Set:$58.96
Timing Belt: $64.76
Tensioner: $107.96
WaterPump: $129.95
Shipping and no tax beat the dealer prices by $75 for the same stuff
Machine shop was like 100.00, to deck & check both heads.
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4k is a down payment on a car man. Go get a used Hyundai Accent or some sh!t like that... put the $3800 down and get a small loan for the rest (probably like $5k). I bet it'll be the payments will be less than your cable bill and you won't have to worry about your car for like 100k miles.
$3800
...FWIW, I have heard that to do a phase 1 DOHC engine HG job, it's actually easier to pull the engine out to do the job right...
...FWIW, I have heard that to do a phase 1 DOHC engine HG job, it's actually easier to pull the engine out to do the job right...
Broken Cars Suck. I am so glad I got the Racing Honda. The Civic not only wins but it is wicked easy to work on. I feel for you pal.
Yup - the shop that did my HG pulled the motor...$3800
I think you are.I would actually welcome being wrong, for H8R's case.
But I'm not.
Toshi... the voice of reason.Repairing cars sucks. For $3800 I'd be buying some tools and taking a crack at it myself. Hell, H8R, you said your wife's out of work. Give her a shop manual and a wrench and tell her to get crackin'!
$3800 is utterly ridiculous. I got quoted $1300 for a clutch change on my Audi S4 and that INCLUDED the parts. There's no possible way that changing a head gasket on your Subaru is any more time consuming than that. Trust me...I decided to do it myself instead.
Find someone who will do it for $1k or less and drive the car for another 100k miles. It's a much better option than buying a new car. Look on CL for some out of work mechanic. There's someone around who can do it for that price.
Or...you could use your celebrity prowess to hook up a sponsorship deal.
Find someone who will do it for $1k or less and drive the car for another 100k miles. It's a much better option than buying a new car. Look on CL for some out of work mechanic. There's someone around who can do it for that price.
Or...you could use your celebrity prowess to hook up a sponsorship deal.
We all know you are.I would actually welcome being wrong, for H8R's case.
But I'm not.
Watch it, Old Man.
So my wife is making a bunch of calls today while I'm working. Another shop is quoting $3400 for a rebuilt engine installed. 50k mile warranty. The guy at this shop echoed the "maybe it's not as bad as you think" sentiment, and suggested doing a pressure check on radiator/cooling system among other things.
I think we're just going to limp this thing along and look at our options later in the year.
So one question - if it IS the head gasket(s), and right now it's minor, what are the odds of it failing completely and suddenly? (do they fail suddenly?)
If I flush the coolant regularly and change the oil often, can I drag this out?
I think we're just going to limp this thing along and look at our options later in the year.
So one question - if it IS the head gasket(s), and right now it's minor, what are the odds of it failing completely and suddenly? (do they fail suddenly?)
If I flush the coolant regularly and change the oil often, can I drag this out?
If it is a head gasket, something is going to happen sooner rather than later. Later in the year isn't an option.