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where's the Bromont 2009 thread?!

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
I think you'll find Palmer was on Intense long before Kovarik, and still is. Sure he had a bit of a rest in the middle, but c'mon....! :D
Palmer-3yrs (big break) plus this season=4yrs
Kovarik=9yrs

It's all meaningless in this thread, but was just thinking this morning about the little factoid.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
First WC and had to have 2 moves reviewed? He's going to make a lot of friends, legal or not.
I think is about time someone decided to race 4x following the rules vs just playing follow the leader down the track. The passes Mitch made were all legal if more people raced like this 4x might have a chance.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
4X is the official UCI designated gated gravity discipline. USAC cannot determine a "National Champion" for gated racing based on DS, it's gotta be 4X. This is why there was a Pro only 4X National Champs at Angel Fire last year. Slalom is not being dropped in any sort of way but there is no way to get any UCI points for it, since in the UCI's eyes it doesn't exist. This could be why if you are hosting a race for UCI categorization you'd want to do 4X vs DS...but it's not like any UCI points are needed to enter a 4X anyways...

On the topic of 4X, as cool as it was that Mitch was 2nd & Mikey was in the consolation round, 4X still sucks compared to any DS. It sucked even more that riders got hurt racing it. You won't see many DH guys risking their season to race a 4X just because of the chance of getting t-boned or slammed. Mitch rode really well, got lucky on a couple occasions, kept his composure against season pros, and rode 4X aggressively like the Eastern Euros do. All the props to him for it but it won't change my opinion that dual slalom pwns 4X in every aspect.

-ska todd
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
4X is the official UCI designated gated gravity discipline. USAC cannot determine a "National Champion" for gated racing based on DS, it's gotta be 4X. This is why there was a Pro only 4X National Champs at Angel Fire last year. Slalom is not being dropped in any sort of way but there is no way to get any UCI points for it, since in the UCI's eyes it doesn't exist. This could be why if you are hosting a race for UCI categorization you'd want to do 4X vs DS...but it's not like any UCI points are needed to enter a 4X anyways...

On the topic of 4X, as cool as it was that Mitch was 2nd & Mikey was in the consolation round, 4X still sucks compared to any DS. It sucked even more that riders got hurt racing it. You won't see many DH guys risking their season to race a 4X just because of the chance of getting t-boned or slammed. Mitch rode really well, got lucky on a couple occasions, kept his composure against season pros, and rode 4X aggressively like the Eastern Euros do. All the props to him for it but it won't change my opinion that dual slalom pwns 4X in every aspect.

-ska todd
thanks for clarifying.

DS is a lot more fun to watch and to compete in. any type of head to head competition is always more entertaining.
 

Salty4X

Monkey
Jun 17, 2006
222
0
First WC and had to have 2 moves reviewed? He's going to make a lot of friends, legal or not.
It was his 2nd, and was kind of what I was getting around to, but who the hell needs friends in 4X. Friends will only get you at best a 2nd. As for the UCI review, you're right I didn't know that they reviewed it and deemed it legal, but I would never look to an UCI official to call any 4X protest the way it should be. What I saw in the footy was contact before Mitch's wheel was in front. Look to Jill Kintner and Scott Beaumont's races at MSA in 2007. THEY'RE (UCI) BONERS DUDE. If they are overlooking these types a move to push the sport into a more aggressive type of racing to where if you get hit and taken out and it's not blatant then get up and be a man, I am all for it. Just be consistent. Who cares though, because a French guy would have made it if he was DQ'ed. Next. :wait:
 

Eastern States Cup

Turbo Monkey
Feb 29, 2008
2,465
2
East Coast
Crazy Canadians not sure of the rider but he was ok, the best was the drunk nut with the 70's mullet trying to run across the 4x with his pants down and a mask over his head.


source: Batts65
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
First WC and had to have 2 moves reviewed? He's going to make a lot of friends, legal or not.
i could almost guarantee that if Graves or any other seasoned 4x racer had pulled those moves there would have been no review.

among the reasons that 4x sucks. . . that and the fact that rad dh venues want nothing to do with world cups because having to build a track for the 4x sideshow is a huge waste of their money.

go slalom
 

Salty4X

Monkey
Jun 17, 2006
222
0
i could almost guarantee that if Graves or any other seasoned 4x racer had pulled those moves there would have been no review. among the reasons that 4x sucks. . . that and the fact that rad dh venues want nothing to do with world cups because having to build a track for the 4x sideshow is a huge waste of their money.
go slalom
Genorrhea Lee....always complaining about something. Hmmm, that sounds somewhat familiar.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Genorrhea Lee....always complaining about something. Hmmm, that sounds somewhat familiar.
Not a complaint, it's fact. 4x has been a problem for mtb racing since it was created and fewer and fewer venues/promoters want anything to do with it.

Genorrhea, eh? What's the matter, bitter 4x rider need a hug?
 

Salty4X

Monkey
Jun 17, 2006
222
0
well since your opinion means nothing, I guess it is a fact in your own little world.(which probably consists of the east coast and Canada) You can't just claim something and then say it is fact. Just because you have 4 billion posts on RM doesn't make you knowledgeable either. And the Genorrhea thing was just to get my day off with a smile. :thumb: guy has the wrong finger up
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
Sorry Salty but the disdain for 4X is rather universal around the racing community and is growing well beyond just the "east coast and Canada". Even the Brits and Euros are starting to look at it and ask hard questions about it's place in our sport. A respected German team director noted to me how it was a "waste of resources" and "not a World Cup worthy sport".

Look at Sea Otter & Crankworx. Both had 4X events and dropped them. The DS at Sea Otter always pulls a crowd. The DS at Crankworx has proven to be a favorite with the pro riders and the fans. As littermag so brilliantly put it, 4X is a sport for riders with a "hard-on for contact".

4X can't even fill out a full 64 men/16 women quali bracket! Why? Because the pro downhill athletes refuse to get hurt for something worth little money and next-to-nothing in media coverage. Look at the overall standings, the only riders putting any effort into racing both this year are Graves and Polc. Three of the top gravity teams don't even have a 4X rider (Syndicate, Trek, Monster). Present the riders with dual slalom and you very well might see that opinion change - especially if you can modify the even schedule to squeeze it in better - maybe 16 quali's vs 32? maybe basic tracks and limited practice session?

Even the best 4X track in the world at Bromont this past weekend failed to bring any significant heap of spectators. Walking the DH track right before racing and then riding the lift for a couple loops during the men's DH there were a considerable amount of fans all along the course. For the 4X there were a gaggle around the finish area (almost all team staff or pro DH racers) and some on the course but where did everyone go? Were the maybe 1,000 fans enough to necessitate the cost of building & maintaining that 4X course? Perhaps put 1/2 that money into a DS course and the other 1/2 into pro purse, event marketing, or a dozen other more worthy causes to grow mountain biking or reward the athletes.

Sorry Salty but 4X is a flop across the board and is on life support. I hope it has a DNR.

-ska todd
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
Isn't there some jpg that says 'arguing about the 4x is like winning the special olympics'?

Anyways...I was thinking about how the constant disrespect and no love from USAC to gravity when it is Gravity that is consistently getting them international results and XC is consistently coming up with no talent. Take the canadian rounds, Americans Gwin and Ropelato (spelling?) grabbing podiums and when I looked at our best XC results I saw at bromont Todd Wells and Adam Craig were 10th and 11th I think, these are guys who have been around forever! I do not follow XC much, but enough to know there is not new american blood grabbing podiums at world cups.

So, cheers to Mitch and Aaron for being rad.
 

spornographer

Monkey
Feb 19, 2009
246
0
4X can't even fill out a full 64 men/16 women quali bracket!

-ska todd
that's what i find most interesting...the number of racers vs the cost of putting on the event. thousands of dollars in track construction for 40, maybe 50 racers seems crazy when XC and DH have hundreds of competitors each.

in any other business, the numbers in 4x would get it shut down immediately.

the complaint of slalom is that it takes too long to run, but if you just run 32, it becomes more competitive, more elite if you make the show and runs easily.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
I was thinking about how the constant disrespect and no love from USAC to gravity when it is Gravity that is consistently getting them international results and XC is consistently coming up with no talent.
I had a very interesting & unexpected discussion w/ Gully at Bromont. Some initiatives are in the works from his/USAC's end that solely relate to Gravity athletes. It sounds like everything is awaiting some approvals but if his little plan goes thru it will be a huge symbolic step in the right direction. I was stoked to hear that maybe some of what we have been harping on is finally taking root.

-ska todd
 

APIOQM

Chimp
Aug 31, 2008
72
0
Even the best 4X track in the world at Bromont this past weekend failed to bring any significant heap of spectators. Walking the DH track right before racing and then riding the lift for a couple loops during the men's DH there were a considerable amount of fans all along the course. For the 4X there were a gaggle around the finish area (almost all team staff or pro DH racers) and some on the course but where did everyone go? Were the maybe 1,000 fans enough to necessitate the cost of building & maintaining that 4X course? Perhaps put 1/2 that money into a DS course and the other 1/2 into pro purse, event marketing, or a dozen other more worthy causes to grow mountain biking or reward the athletes.

-ska todd
What did they expect when they put 4X finals 3 hours after the DH finals ended... I wasn't going to stick around.
 

epic

Turbo Monkey
Sep 15, 2008
1,041
21
Anyways...I was thinking about how the constant disrespect and no love from USAC to gravity when it is Gravity that is consistently getting them international results and XC is consistently coming up with no talent. Take the canadian rounds, Americans Gwin and Ropelato (spelling?) grabbing podiums and when I looked at our best XC results I saw at bromont Todd Wells and Adam Craig were 10th and 11th I think, these are guys who have been around forever! I do not follow XC much, but enough to know there is not new american blood grabbing podiums at world cups.
You are totally right, but until DH is in the Olympics it'll probably stay that way.
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
that's what i find most interesting...the number of racers vs the cost of putting on the event. thousands of dollars in track construction for 40, maybe 50 racers seems crazy when XC and DH have hundreds of competitors each.

in any other business, the numbers in 4x would get it shut down immediately.

the complaint of slalom is that it takes too long to run, but if you just run 32, it becomes more competitive, more elite if you make the show and runs easily.

And 7 pro women. ;)
 

stiksandstones

Turbo Monkey
May 21, 2002
5,078
25
Orange, Ca
I had a very interesting & unexpected discussion w/ Gully at Bromont. Some initiatives are in the works from his/USAC's end that solely relate to Gravity athletes. It sounds like everything is awaiting some approvals but if his little plan goes thru it will be a huge symbolic step in the right direction. I was stoked to hear that maybe some of what we have been harping on is finally taking root.

-ska todd
I fear he is just telling you what you want to hear, but I do know Gully aims to please. I hope he has seen some live coverage by now. At the sea otter I asked him if he saw any of the live world cups last year...he did not even know what a freecaster/mtbcut/etc...was.
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
What did they expect when they put 4X finals 3 hours after the DH finals ended... I wasn't going to stick around.
And this is another big part about why the DH pro's don't want to race 4X, especially at a triple-header. Saturday becomes a 12+ hr day with DH practice, DH racing, 4X practice, 4X racing, wizz-quiz, & awards. For double rounds the top guys all want to be in bed nice and early for a 6:30 or 7am wake-up for DH race day. They don't want to be racing until 8pm and then eating dinner at 9pm. That's not conducive to athletic performance.

-ska todd
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
That happens after all of the racing on Saturdays (or Sundays at a double round) ;)

-ska todd
 

caballero

Monkey
Jun 30, 2004
301
0
good ol' europe
dh venues want nothing to do with world cups because having to build a track for the 4x sideshow is a huge waste of their money.

go slalom
a good slalom course is also a lot of work so thats probably not the reason ..

4X can't even fill out a full 64 men/16 women quali bracket!
thats an US-only problem .... if theres a field of 100+ riders at a 4x world cup no one cares if some of the DH riders compete or not ....

Present the riders with dual slalom and you very well might see that opinion change
you're right .... i would love to see the big guns of DH racing Slalom again but it should not replace 4X ..
 

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
a good slalom course is also a lot of work so thats probably not the reason ..
It's no where close to the amount of work, the huge amounts of dirt needed, and the footprint left behind after its use.

thats an US-only problem .... if theres a field of 100+ riders at a 4x world cup no one cares if some of the DH riders compete or not ....
Euro rounds:
BEL - men = 64, women = 24
AND - men = 56, women = 24
GBR - men = 56, women = 16
SLO - men = 64, women = 16

I'm sure if I dig around some I can find the full quali numbers but those are the finishing numbers. So, it looks like 1/2 the Euro rounds didn't even have the required riders for a full bracket.

When combined with the RSA round and two CAN rounds we have 2:7 that took the max # of men. By comparison, the men's DH at RSA took the max qualifiers PLUS two for the protected group (and that race was a bitch for riders and teams to get to and was the first round of the season).

-ska todd
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
a good slalom course is also a lot of work so thats probably not the reason ..



thats an US-only problem .... if theres a field of 100+ riders at a 4x world cup no one cares if some of the DH riders compete or not ....



you're right .... i would love to see the big guns of DH racing Slalom again but it should not replace 4X ..
A good DS course requires massively less amounts of work and budget.

I have never seen 100+ riders for a 4x round. In fact the few times they tried to run 64 this year, there were brackets of 3.
 

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Were the maybe 1,000 fans enough to necessitate the cost of building & maintaining that 4X course? Perhaps put 1/2 that money into a DS course and the other 1/2 into pro purse, event marketing, or a dozen other more worthy causes to grow mountain biking or reward the athletes.

-ska todd
The figure given to me was $10k just to resurface the 4x track to get it ready for the season. That $$ would build one hell of a slalom, or give the dh winners more than the measly couple hundred dollars they get now.

i give it 1 more season until its RIP'd
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
Nothing constructive here..:imstupid:...but I thought 4x was a stupid idea from Day one when it premiered at Mt.Snow (2001?)......
 

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
The figure given to me was $10k just to resurface the 4x track to get it ready for the season. That $$ would build one hell of a slalom, or give the dh winners more than the measly couple hundred dollars they get now.

i give it 1 more season until its RIP'd
$10k can build a sick DS course



Nothing constructive here..:imstupid:...but I thought 4x was a stupid idea from Day one when it premiered at Mt.Snow (2001?)......
i was just going to mention the 2001 Mt Snow 4X. there were a ton of people there, myself included, but it was still a new sport and the course was awesome
 

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
i was just going to mention the 2001 Mt Snow 4X. there were a ton of people there, myself included, but it was still a new sport and the course was awesome
Too much work.
Too much overhead.
Too much planning.
Too few capable racers (non WC).

I could go on and on.....