Israel Kills 60 in retaliation for 2 - Sharon 'satisfied' so far..

Jesus · Oct 4, 2004

Yeah!!!!!

What's that saying, "Put one of ours in the hospital, we put on of theirs in the grave"

Dumbasses, that's what they get. Don't pick a fight with the big kid if you can't handle it.

Jesus · Oct 5, 2004

Let me get a bit more in depth here.

When it comes to the whole Isralie-Palestinian conflict, it's simple for me. I side with Israel, and here's why.

I could care less who was there first, who started it, etc...

But when you blow up innocent people (Palestinians suicide bombers), to get a government to change, I think it is just wrong, and no matter what the reason behind it is, doesn't metter.

I remember a few years ago hearing about a suicide bomber in an ice cream store that was filled with families.

How can they expect support, when they do stuff like that?

Jesus · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
Good to know the US population also supports state terrorism... Just don't complain next time someone smashes a plane into your family's offices eh?

I am at a loss as how to respond to this one.

Why all the anger?

Jesus · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
But bulldozing houses with families still inside, and executing civilians in the streets in front of their families is fine with you?

You really don't believe that is what is really going on do you?

s1ngletrack · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
Good to know the US population also supports state terrorism... Just don't complain next time someone smashes a plane into your family's offices eh?

Wow - the sentiments of an entire nation - reflected through one post of one Monkey. Shhh... listen guys, it's The Calm Voice of Reason.

MikeD · Oct 5, 2004

Jesus said:
I could care less who was there first, who started it, etc...

But when you blow up innocent people (Palestinians suicide bombers), to get a government to change, I think it is just wrong, and no matter what the reason behind it is, doesn't metter.

You probably don't realize how hypocritical this statement is, because it seems you don't understand much of the history of Israel.

Israelis used the same tactics being used against them when they were attempting to found the state of Israel. That is, blowing up innocent people to effect political change. Many of these Israelis are still alive, too, and fighting against the Palestinians now, some of whom were also alive when Israel brought itself into being.

This isn't ancient history, and you can't look at it like "Hey, that was a long time ago and I/they wasn't/weren't responsible."

You CAN look at it as Israel being, for better or worse, firmly established and having citizens who expect a right to life, liberty, etc. However, (and this seems to be a theme of mine as of late) it's hypocritical whining to abhor the Palestinian's methods. It's a war that Israel basically brought upon itself by coming into being...which was an act of will, not some accident. If they didn't consider the consequences, well, that's too bad for them.

It's a war that the Palestinians sure didn't want, either...but they're stuck with it, and they're going to fight with the weapons they have available. They're militarily weak, compared to a conventional state, and they're going to resort to the only tools that the weak have, which pretty much boil down to attacking the defenseless in an attempt to change Israel's mind. (And, again, the same methods used by Israelis themselves in the recent past...)

This isn't an endorsement of their methods, but it's cold, hard realism. Israel can and should defend itself, but to cry about the methods by which it's being attacked is useless, and, again, hypocritical. It might also want to adopt a more effective strategy, because the strategy you so elegantly outlined above just isn't working for them. It has worked in some cases at some times for some people, but here, they're just digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

MD

LordOpie · Oct 5, 2004

MikeD said:
It's a war that Israel basically brought upon itself by coming into being...which was an act of will, not some accident. If they didn't consider the consequences, well, that's too bad for them.

That's like saying she deserved to be rape cuz she was wearing a short dress.

MikeD said:
It's a war that the Palestinians sure didn't want, either...

You're talking about the people, right? The average person? Cuz the PLO and the rest of the Arab world sure as hell did want it and are using the palestinians as pawns.

The biggest offender isn't Palestines, nor Israel... it's the fvcking arab world using these people like so much fodder.

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
Good to know the US population also supports state terrorism... Just don't complain next time someone smashes a plane into your family's offices eh?[/QUOTE

First, I think that smashing a plane into a family's office is a bit harsh. But hey, aint freedom of speech wonderful. Also, I remember a saying that goes something like: Do unto others as you would have done to you". SO this is sweet justice for 3000 years of slavery and the death of countless millions along the way.

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
No - No, it's not. In any way.
We're talking about the current Israeli 'operation' - The offender here is the Israelis. Please try and stay focussed.

I guess the air is somewhat lacking in your neck of the woods huh?

Israel is a terrorist state? Laughable at best. I don think that just because a state runs down a known terrorist organization and tries to bury it to protect it's people warrants being called a terrorist state. I mean I asked you this question in an earlier thread. How many CIVILIANS have the Israelis killed? Yes, I know they have killed a few. Now, lets ask, how many CIVILIANS has Hamas, PLO and Adu Nidal killed along the same time line? I bet if you looked at the numbers, you might find that your liberal left wing communist propaganda rag has it backwards.

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Ok N8, you can go back on the anti-schizo meds now. HA..

Seriously comrade, If you believe that, then I have some beach fornt property to sell you in Utah. Lets ask ourselves which of the news agencys are always reporting the whole truth. (your words) Survey says: None.

Wanna do something different with me? I have to go back to Iraq in March of next year. Why dont you come over there and meet me in Jerusalem and we'll count together how many civilians are killed?

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Yeah, lets believe Al Jezeera, they always tell the truth about everything dont they.

Haaretz? Please dont make me laugh. They're every bit as objective as Al Jezeera.

BBC, maybe, but not from my expirience with them in Iraq. I used to believe they were a credible objective news paper, but not after they aired a story about the 5 Americans that died because they got ambushed froma mosque and how we were wrong to bomb it with the militants in it. Sorry, cant and WONT take them seriously...

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Changleen said:
An the utterly predictable US response:
http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6422029&pageNumber=0

Why should we support known terrorists in getting Israel of their backs?

MikeD · Oct 5, 2004

LordOpie said:
That's like saying she deserved to be rape cuz she was wearing a short dress.

No, it's not. Nothing of the kind, in fact. If Israel failed to consider the Palestinians when it established itself in their backyard, it's THEIR fault.

LordOpie said:
You're talking about the people, right? The average person? Cuz the PLO and the rest of the Arab world sure as hell did want it and are using the palestinians as pawns.

Yeah, the PLO wanted Israel to exist. That's why they didn't fvcking exist at that point. Give me a break. You're saying that the PLO formed before Israel existed.

LordOpie said:
The biggest offender isn't Palestines, nor Israel... it's the fvcking arab world using these people like so much fodder.

Yeah, that's very true. No Arabs liked the Palestinians before, and now they're using them to attack the hated Jewish presence in their backyard.

But if you're a Palestinian, you're going to side with the guys who might help you out, regardless.

MD

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

So I should feel bad for them for doing the same to the Palestinians because they, (the palestinians) are doing the same to the Israelis?

Its called "and eye for an eye". Says it in the quran, the torah, and the bible.

genpowell71 · Oct 5, 2004

Forgivness, yes. Jihad, yes it does also. Great how there seems to be a catch 22 in the Quran

blue · Oct 6, 2004

Great to see that they're all ancient, primal, and uncivilized.

Nations were never entirely governed well by thousand year old books.

Jesus · Oct 6, 2004

Changleen said:
Yes, I use a little thing called 'The News' and the 'report' things on it. I know you only have entertainment and propaganda channels in your country though. Try expanding your media horizons a little before you talk about something you have no knowledge of.

How do you know what is really going on?

Depending on what station you watch/listen too, it will be either Pro-Israel, or Pro-Palestinian. But how come you only believe the Pro-Palestinian point of view?

Don't you find it odd that you only agree with the news when it suits your point of view?

Jesus · Oct 6, 2004

Changleen said:
But bulldozing houses with families still inside, and executing civilians in the streets in front of their families is fine with you?

What do you expect?

They run and hide in the homes of innocent Palestinians after they blow up a few people!

The Palestinians should be pissed that these "a$$holes" are putting them in the middle of it.

Jesus · Oct 6, 2004

MikeD said:
You probably don't realize how hypocritical this statement is, because it seems you don't understand much of the history of Israel.

Israelis used the same tactics being used against them when they were attempting to found the state of Israel. That is, blowing up innocent people to effect political change. Many of these Israelis are still alive, too, and fighting against the Palestinians now, some of whom were also alive when Israel brought itself into being.

This isn't ancient history, and you can't look at it like "Hey, that was a long time ago and I/they wasn't/weren't responsible."

You CAN look at it as Israel being, for better or worse, firmly established and having citizens who expect a right to life, liberty, etc. However, (and this seems to be a theme of mine as of late) it's hypocritical whining to abhor the Palestinian's methods. It's a war that Israel basically brought upon itself by coming into being...which was an act of will, not some accident. If they didn't consider the consequences, well, that's too bad for them.

It's a war that the Palestinians sure didn't want, either...but they're stuck with it, and they're going to fight with the weapons they have available. They're militarily weak, compared to a conventional state, and they're going to resort to the only tools that the weak have, which pretty much boil down to attacking the defenseless in an attempt to change Israel's mind. (And, again, the same methods used by Israelis themselves in the recent past...)

This isn't an endorsement of their methods, but it's cold, hard realism. Israel can and should defend itself, but to cry about the methods by which it's being attacked is useless, and, again, hypocritical. It might also want to adopt a more effective strategy, because the strategy you so elegantly outlined above just isn't working for them. It has worked in some cases at some times for some people, but here, they're just digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

MD

I think LOpie explained it well in his rebuttal.

(now I am doing that Cheney move, where I say I don;t want to make a comment, get quiet, and have an irritated grimace on my face.)

MikeD · Oct 6, 2004

No, he didn't...he made a completely off-base analogy in an attempt to answer. Israel wasn't a 'girl with a short skirt' on when it brought itself into being...it wasn't just innocently 'walking along minding its own business,' it made a conscious decision, as the culmination of the Zionist doctrine, to come into being, and perpetrated numerous terrorist acts (car bombs, etc.) towards that end. Yeah, the UN endorsed it, but it's not like becoming a nation was imposed on Israel...rather, they imposed their nation on the middle east.

This isn't a moral argument on my part; it's just facts and realism. There is no right or wrong in this, only power and your ability to employ it. Israel had enough power to make itself a nation and defend itself. Good for Israel.

I just think it's whining when they cry about their situation. When you decide to form a nation on someone else's land, and simply fail to take an entire people into consideration when you do it (say, like the United States did...), it's put-up-or-shut-up time. Israel doesn't seem capable of dealing with the consequences of their actions, by either making peace (which has been admittedly difficult, often due to the Palestinian leadership) or winning the war (all they're doing lately is making a stickier tar baby).

They made the Palestinian resistance, and in fact taught it a lot of its tactics. Now they can't hack it.

MD

BurlyShirley · Oct 6, 2004

MikeD said:
They made the Palestinian resistance, and in fact taught it a lot of its tactics. Now they can't hack it.

MD

It seems to me they are hacking it, and quite brutally. At what point do the palestinians cut their losses though?

LordOpie · Oct 6, 2004

BurlySurly said:
It seems to me they are hacking it, and quite brutally. At what point do the palestinians cut their losses though?

When Bush forces them to accept statehood.

MikeD · Oct 6, 2004

BurlySurly said:
It seems to me they are hacking it, and quite brutally. At what point do the palestinians cut their losses though?

Never underestimate the power of desperation.

It's Israel's sense of moral indignation to being attacked that's 'not hacking it,' not their military response. Their military response, though, while brutal, isn't bringing them any closer to their objective of security. It's not reducing the number of attacks, nor is it crushing the capability of their enemy to attack...in fact, it's recruiting more people to do the attacking, likely more than they're killing.

MD

N8 v2.0 · Oct 6, 2004

MikeD said:
Never underestimate the power of desperation.

It's Israel's sense of moral indignation to being attacked that's 'not hacking it,' not their military response. Their military response, though, while brutal, isn't bringing them any closer to their objective of security. It's not reducing the number of attacks, nor is it crushing the capability of their enemy to attack...in fact, it's recruiting more people to do the attacking, likely more than they're killing.

MD

So basically the only way to stop the killing is for one side to completly wipeout the other..??

MikeD · Oct 6, 2004

I'm not offering answers...I didn't create the mess, and frankly don't know what's best. But what they're doing is obviously not working. I don't pretend to be smart enough to solve this problem...so they're whiners, and I'm just a sideline snob, making obnoxious comments

I think that wiping out one side or the other would work; however, it's complicated by the fact that the 'Palestinian' side is the Arab world in general. The US had it easy, because the Native Americans didn't have any foreign allies, and were much less numerous overall. It's also pretty a pretty unpalatable thing to do. However, if you don't want to make peace, and neither side wants/seems to be able to agree to realistic peace, there's gonna be a fight. If I'm in a fight, I'm going to win, or I'm going to die.

That's why I prefer to avoid fights if possible.

LordOpie · Oct 6, 2004

The answer is simple... I'm sure there's a fair amount of land along the river that the UN/US could buy/steal from Jordan. Build "Palestine" there. Get some people to move from the hell hole they're in. They'll become happy in the new state and word will spread. The PLO/PA propoganda about hating Israel and not resting until they've control Jerusalem will fade.

Build New Palestine without the support/aid/approval of PA/PLO/Arab World... fvck 'em, they don't care anyway.

LordOpie · Oct 6, 2004

Changleen said:
So, Opie, at what point was it decided that Palestine should move? Why Don't the Israelis move? They got there last.

Israel has nukes. Israel is an official state. Palestinians have no homes.

Anything short of making a Palestinian state, wherever there's land for it, is tantamount to supporting a death sentence... do you want them dead?

Put your ill-founded emotions aside and look for the easiest, safest, and fastest solution.

MikeD · Oct 6, 2004

LordOpie said:
Israel has nukes. Israel is an official state. Palestinians have no homes.

Palestinians are also capable of making life pretty unbearable for Israelis. And no matter how much you whine, they *won't* go elsewhere, because they'd rather die.

Does Israel have the balls to do it? Will the US let them?

MD

Israel Kills 60 in retaliation for 2 - Sharon 'satisfied' so far..

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