[Changleen]

Israel has nukes. Israel is an official state. Palestinians have no homes.

Nothing to do with it...

look for the easiest, safest, and fastest solution.

Now there is a little bit of sense. Even quicker than moving hundreds of thousands of people, Israel could just stop killing them! Bit of Love might go a long way... But unfortunatly Israelis and Palestinians seem to have such tiny minds that they are stuck in a 'he hit me first' mindset of a toddler. You'd think, being an apparantly civilized state, that the Israelis might be able to think their way out of this one.
"Ok, so he hit me, I hit him, he hit me, I hit him..Hmm this isn't good...what should I do?...I know..."*Thump* GROW UP CHILDREN.

 

[LordOpie]

Palestinians are also capable of making life pretty unbearable for Israelis. And no matter how much you whine, they *won't* go elsewhere, because they'd rather die.

So you support the death of innocent people?

 

[Changleen]

So you support the death of innocent people?

 

[MikeD]

So you support the death of innocent people?

I support reality. It's Israel's choice, not mine.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

...Israel could just stop killing them! Bit of Love might go a long way...

that will never happen and in order for said "love" to take effect and be proven, you're asking Israel to allow thier citizens to be killed to prove they want the end of the war. The who hit who first argument is totally moot as they keep hitting each other.

The sooner that everyone realizes that there will never ever be a peaceful co-existence, the sooner another, more realistic solution can be sought.

And don't say it's just Israel... the PLO/PA has outright said that they will not rest until they occupy Jerusalem and have driven the jews out of what they consider palestine.

The solution, again, is to attack the hearts and souls of the average palestinian people. Convince them there's a life outside of this crap and the PA/PLO power falls away.

 

[bpatterson6]

Yes, I use a little thing called 'The News' and the 'report' things on it. I know you only have entertainment and propaganda channels in your country though. Try expanding your media horizons a little before you talk about something you have no knowledge of.

Yes, I use a little thing called 'The News' and the 'report' things on it. .

Right...Thank god we don't have to worry about you voting or participating in anything in our country. Jack Arse...

I know you only have entertainment and propaganda channels in your country though.

You must be a Lonesome & mean person. The way we see you put down Americans and anyone else whom doesnt suit your views. Just agree to disagree, you dont have to be an arse about it.

Try expanding your media horizons a little before you talk about something you have no knowledge of.

Every time you speak, nothing but mean thoughts come out of your posts...Wtf???
What are you so mad at?
Do you even ride, because I NEVER EVER EVER EVER see any of your posts anywhere else, except the political debate forum.

 

[LordOpie]

I support reality. It's Israel's choice, not mine.

MD

it's totally Israel's responsibility?

What if Jordan said, "hey, come join us" to the palestinian people?

 

[N8 v2.0]

You are a real dick sometimes. Did you read the thread?

Did you just call Jesus a 'dick?'


Bub, you are gonna roast in hell for sho'...!!!!

 

[MikeD]

it's totally Israel's responsibility?

Yep.

Reality also says, "no other Arab states want the Palestinians, either, but will cash in on their misery to fight the Jews."

Suck it up.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

you can all you want, but the fact remains... if you don't support finding a solution, then you support the death of innocents.

 

[LordOpie]

Yep.

Reality also says, "no other Arab states want the Palestinians, either, but will cash in on their misery to fight the Jews."

Suck it up.

MD

If neither israel nor other arab states want 'em, shouldn't they be given their own state?

 

[Changleen]

you can all you want, but the fact remains... if you don't support finding a solution, then you support the death of innocents.

Becuse you pre-suppose a perpetual state of war between the two peoples...

 

[MikeD]

you can all you want, but the fact remains... if you don't support finding a solution, then you support the death of innocents.

"A solution" to you basically consists of passing the problems off to someone else so that Israel doesn't have to deal with the problems it created.

Since that's not going to happen, well, you'll have to live with supporting the death of innocent people.

And that's really not a unique thing to have to live with, mind you.

MD

 

[MikeD]

If neither israel nor other arab states want 'em, shouldn't they be given their own state?

OK. Sounds fair. I think I know where they want that state to be.

 

[Changleen]

Where it was in the first place..

 

[N8 v2.0]

Where it was in the first place..

It never was..??

 

[LordOpie]

Becuse you pre-suppose a perpetual state of war between the two peoples...

huh? Are you saying these two groups of people can find a common ground, can find peace? Are you saying that recent history is irrelevant?

"A solution" to you basically consists of passing the problems off to someone else so that Israel doesn't have to deal with the problems it created.

huh? I'm totally for my country -- the mutha fvcking kickass USA -- for taking the lead, find land, giving resources and helping the palestinian people build a life for themselves.

OK. Sounds fair. I think I know where they want that state to be.

Is it where there's not a whole lot of people, buildings, established culture already? Oh, you're talking about western Kansas. Works for me.

 

[LordOpie]

It never was..??

you fvckers better not put me and N8 on the same side of this or any discussion.

 

[MikeD]

Very true. The Palestinians never had a state, or even an identity as a people, until it grew in opposition to Israel. The reason this identity grew is because people were pretty pissed about being disposessed from lands they'd lived and worked on for generation upon generation.

They thought of themselves simply as "arabs," and most weren't Arabs who had much going for them...they were tenants to absentee landlords in most cases.

Still doesn't mean they don't have a reason to be pissed, or that the formation of a national identity in opposition to their enemy is somehow invalid.

MD

 

[Changleen]

huh? Are you saying these two groups of people can find a common ground, can find peace?

If they can't thats a pretty pathetic reflection on them both, especially the ones who like to think they are civilized!

 

[MikeD]

huh? I'm totally for my country -- the mutha fvcking kickass USA -- for taking the lead, find land, giving resources and helping the palestinian people build a life for themselves.

...in a way that doesn't force Israel to make any concessions.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

If they can't thats a pretty pathetic reflection on them both, especially the ones who like to think they are civilized!

Are you saying Palestinians don't think they're civilized?

 

[LordOpie]

...in a way that doesn't force Israel to make any concessions.

MD

Which is more important to you, (A) punishing israel or (B) helping the palestinian people? No no, choose one. No long posts, no explainations... which is more important... A or B?

It's obvious from your posts that it's A... and that's fine, but now you understand why peace won't be found. Until everyone chooses B, that region is fvcked.

 

[Changleen]

Are you saying Palestinians don't think they're civilized?

No, I'm refering to the people who consistently whinge on the world stage that they're being attacked by savages. You know, the ones with the huge US sponsored '4th largest in the world' army, a huge concrete wall surrounding most of their land....
"Help help, the nasty savages are attacking! They have pointy sticks and homemade fireworks!"

LET ME REMIND YOU AGAIN: Last week, Palestinians killed 2 Israeli kids with a home made rocket. In retaliation, Israel launched an offensive 9Km into Palestinian territory, Killing 70+ Palestinians, at least half of which (even according to pro-Israeli sounces) were innocent people - women and children!

 

[MikeD]

Which is more important to you, Opie? A) Reality or B) Hanging on to a fantasy in which Israel can wash its hands of the mess IT and IT ALONE created.

I don't want to punish Israel. It's done a fine job of punishing itself already.

MD

Edit: The Palestinians also don't want your brand of 'help.' They want their land back, rationally or irrationally. Deal with it. They're going to have to deal with the fact that they'll never have it all back, too.

 

[Changleen]

Until everyone chooses B, that region is fvcked.

Yes, and who needs to choose it before anyone else can start to help? The Israelis!

 

[LordOpie]

congrats, you two win.

 

[MikeD]

No, we don't.

 

[MikeD]

LET ME REMIND YOU AGAIN: Last week, Palestinians killed 2 Israeli kids with a home made rocket.

If they'd have had a nuke instead of a homemade rocket, they'd have killed as many hundreds of thousands of Israelis as they could. 'Terrorism' for political change has actually evolved into a simple low-intensity war.

It's not like the Palestineans are on the moral high ground here. In fact, they're often on the lower ground.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

Edit: The Palestinians also don't want your brand of 'help.' They want their land back, rationally or irrationally. Deal with it. They're going to have to deal with the fact that they'll never have it all back, too.

So you're saying no one should try?

Seriously, consider this idea for a moment... find some unoccupied land nearby, say, north along the river. We (USA) start building an infrastructure, we declare it the state of Palestine, invite Palestinians to move there... tell 'em we'll help move 'em, sent transports to pick-up those who want to move. After enough of 'em voluntarily settle in, buildings are built, school's started, they hold elections and take over their own country.

You think that won't work? Should no one try that?

 

[MikeD]

So you're saying no one should try?

Seriously, consider this idea for a moment... find some unoccupied land nearby, say, north along the river. We (USA) start building an infrastructure, we declare it the state of Palestine, invite Palestinians to move there... tell 'em we'll help move 'em, sent transports to pick-up those who want to move. After enough of 'em voluntarily settle in, buildings are built, school's started, they hold elections and take over their own country.

You think that won't work? Should no one try that?

Try? Try to move people who have a significant portion of their polulation who are willing to blow themselves up rather than accept that they're not going to get their ancestral lands back?

You might as well suggest to the Israelis that they all move to New York, and leave behind all their infrastructure as a rent payment to the Palestinians.

Please, please come back to reality.

MD

 

[LordOpie]

wow, you two are the most pessimistic hateful posters on this forum

 

[MikeD]

You, however, are the funniest by far.

 

[LordOpie]

It's sad that you don't think anyone outside of that desperate situation should try to help and make things better.

 

[Changleen]

It's sad that you don't think anyone outside of that desperate situation should try to help and make things better.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

 

[Changleen]

wow, you two are the most pessimistic hateful posters on this forum

"Wow, I've run out of arguments! "

 

[MikeD]

It's sad that you don't think anyone outside of that desperate situation should try to help and make things better.

It's sad that you think the only solution to that desperate situation is one that one side will never accept.

You basically side with Israel in your 'solution' by not requiring anything of it. You just remove Israel's enemies. However, Israel's enemies won't be removed.

Both sides will have to conceed things or the fight will continue. It may continue regardless. But your 'solution,' as visionary as you think it is, is laughable.

How about we drop you off in Gaza so you can personally tell them they're being deported somewhere else?

MD

 

[LordOpie]

How about we drop you off in Gaza so you can personally tell them they're being deported somewhere else?

Did I say that we should force them to leave?

 

[LordOpie]

You can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

Your "someone" is a group of people. I bet there are plenty of palestinian citizens who would love the opportunity at a 'normal' life. I say we should do what we can to help those people.

Let the fvcknuts who want to keep fighting do it.

 

[MikeD]

OK, well, set up shop 'along the river' and see how many people come flocking. If you haven't noticed, they're a little attached to the land they're on right now, and are trying to get back all of Israel. They'll still consider themselves refugees anywhere else.

If you don't force them there, you won't have anyone there. Once the American Indians realized what 'reservation' really meant, they fought until they were broken, and were made to move to the reservations or die. Sad but true, man.

I don't, despite what you think, hate anyone. Quite the contrary, I'd love to see peace over there and elsewhere, and have (perhaps a bit too subtly) made a case for peace this whole thread. However, I realize peace is sometimes an ideal of which the human race often falls short...and I realize what needs to happen in a fight. Starting fights you don't win decisively is not comfortable. Long wars are worse than short, brutal, decisive ones. And delusions about what someone else 'should' do will just bring you to tears when reality comes back to say hello. You can only control your own actions, and try as best you can to predict the actions of others. I don't think the Palestinians are going to change their course of action anytime soon, and neither did they start this fight, so I think the ball's really in Israel's court. If they don't want to acknowledge that, well, they're gonna stay in the hurt locker.

MD

Edit: Pick up some Edward Said for a very eloquent expression of how one relatively Westernized Palestinean feels. He's not your typical Palestinian, obviously, but he's very smart and eloquent, and might help give some insight.