[Changleen]

So "let terrorism win" is the message we're sending? That sounds good.

Sorry, but I, and a considerable chunk of the rest of the world, including most of Europe, most of Asia, most of the Middle East, (New Zealand for sure) view the actions of the Israeli government as far more heinous and 'terroristic' than those of the Palestinians.
This is a non point.
Just because the US Government and Media have choosen to brand certain attack methods as terrorism, does not make them somehow 'worse' than any other means of killing innocent civilians. Bearing in mind Israel has killed 3 times more 'opposing' civilians than Palestine, who is the bigger 'terrorist'?

In reality, Israel stopping hostilities first would be the 'terrorist' side capitulating for most people.

 

[LordOpie]

The other thing which you refuse to accept is that if anyone has the right to call that area of land 'home', it's the Palestinians, not the Israelis.

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with the history... you do know that the "real" "palestinians" are now Jordanians, right?

 

[Changleen]

so why doesn't palestine just stop with the suicide bombings, make an international statement to that effect?

You ALWAYS come to this point! You always, when we get to the point of 'one side has to stop' just jump to 'Why don't THEY stop?'

THIS IS THE PROBLEM. (Funnly enough in this debate as well as reality)

I don't give a fvck if a bunch of extremist idiots (both sides) want to kill each other over a stretch of desert, but when the repercussions start to make the rest of the world unstable, it's a bit more of an issue for me.

The Israelis, backed by the US, are one side in this war.
The Palestinians (manipulated by the Arab world if you like) are the other.

There are only 2 sides.

One of them has to stop first.

Given that as a first world, developed, moral nation that Israel claims to be, (and claims it's opponent is not) and that Israel therefore obviously abhours the pointless loss of civilian life,

why

would

you

not

stop

first?

Unless your penis was acting instead of your brain, or, for some reason, secretly did not want to stop?

 

[Changleen]

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with the history... you do know that the "real" "palestinians" are now Jordanians, right?

One of the Major points here is that we have to learn to let go of 'History' the whole frickin time and learn to move into the future.

 

[LordOpie]

are you saying that palestine doesn't see themselves as civilized and mature?

PS: they're not a real group of people, they belong in jordan :devil:

PPSS: I never say they should stop, I'm just countering your argument. My arguement has and always will be that the UN, US, Arab Nations, and anyone else who wants to chip in should help Palestine form their own state on land that is currently available.

 

[LordOpie]

One of the Major points here is that we have to learn to let go of 'History' the whole frickin time and learn to move into the future.

omfg, i'm glad you finally got my point. Funny that you change your tune to an entirely different song when the facts counter your position instead of recognizing said facts. But let's not dwell on the past right? Does this mean you're gonna stop with the the bullsh:t of who "belongs" on said land?

 

[Changleen]

omfg, i'm glad you finally got my point. Funny that you change your tune to an entirely different song when the facts counter your position instead of recognizing said facts.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You are talking to yourself here I suppose?

But let's not dwell on the past right?

Right.

Does this mean you're gonna stop with the the bullsh:t of who "belongs" on said land?

Dude, you brought it up!

I'm guessing you're not that familiar with the history... you do know that the "real" "palestinians" are now Jordanians, right?

This whole thread has been about what's happening NOW, and how to stop it. The title itself refers to events that are still happening! Several pages ago we just had exactly the same argument! That time it was actually MikeD who brought up whose land it was. It doesn't matter. Read our posts and our identical argument again.

 

[LordOpie]

suppose you magically got the two sides to stop, then what?

 

[Changleen]

are you saying that palestine doesn't see themselves as civilized and mature?

This is utterly besides the point!
But, if I was some palestinian elder, sitting aroung each day, getting old without medicare of anysort, seeing what my society is like today, I think I would feel pretty pissed off about the state of things, yes.

PS: they're not a real group of people, they belong in jordan :devil:

.....

PPSS: I never say they should stop, I'm just countering your argument. My arguement has and always will be that the UN, US, Arab Nations, and anyone else who wants to chip in should help Palestine form their own state on land that is currently available.

Has it? I just read you argue a whole bunch of other things! I think the trouble with that is that no-one wants to help, until the pointless retaliation cycle stops.

 

[Changleen]

suppose you magically got the two sides to stop, then what?

I just posted that! Please pay attention!

And, it's quite obvious really. PEOPLE STOP DYING! Hooray. Did I really need to point that out to you?

 

[Changleen]

Look, Opie, we've had this argument twice in the same thread now, eh? Me and Mike won the first time:

congrats, you two win.

Can we just admit we've been round this loop already, alright? It's done. Israel suck for killing 75 people in retaliation for 2. It's over.

 

[LordOpie]

I just posted that! Please pay attention!

And, it's quite obvious really. PEOPLE STOP DYING! Hooray. Did I really need to point that out to you?

so you're saying that israel would be happy with the land they have and palestine would be happy with the land they're on?

Palestine doesn't want to occupy Jerusalem?

 

[Changleen]

I'm not doing this anymore.

 

[LordOpie]

no no, i'm not trolling or trying to annoy you. I'm being sincere when I ask what happens after a halt to the hostilities?

Okay, put aside Palestine's demands to have in jerusalem for a moment. Look at the map, palestine is all fvcked up geographically, so is israel. They're spread out like sesame seeds on a bun.

What happens after the peace-treaty is signed?

 

[Toshi]

then the palestinians go back to being low-paid laborers in israeli factories, continue to out-multiply the israelis, and eventually peacefully "take over" most of the region. by this i mean jews, jewish arabs and non-jew arabs peacefully living intermingled in proportional numbers in all areas (as in not having the palestinians all far away from the red sea, etc.).

 

[Changleen]

Negotiations.

Opie there are going to be hundreds of tiny issues for these two states to resolve. In a very real way, you can imagine them as a huge pile, minor greivences massing like sand at the bottom, working up through the pile to larger issues, maybe the burning of an olice grove, up to the boulder sized random killings, to the giant rocks sitting on top of it all, the fact of the violence itself, the acts that triggered a new round of it. All of it has to go.

It's just like Pang. You gotta shoot the big bubbles to get at the smaller ones.

It all starts from the initial destruction of that huge rock, the biggest bubble. Stop the violence. Commit to not restarting it again. Negotiate over the land issues. There is still plenty to go round at this stage. Can you not share anymore? Are these proposed new states to be like East and West Berlin? Wouldn't a Geneva be a better model? Surely a religious site is to be shared? They were sharing fine until a few years ago. I know, I was there.

All it takes is to start, and to mean it, and to stick with it, with the intention of out-sticking the other guy, no matter what. If Israel could do that, they would at the least have a genuine moral highground in any new conflict, but in all probability they'd have a genuine solution.

Right now, none of this matters. Right now, Palestinians are being killed by Sharon. Actually right now, like while I'm typing and you're reading.

Sharon does not seem to want to stop. His actions seem to have only one message to the Palestinians - 'We're better than you. We will take, you will die. We will grow, you will suffer.' The USA supports Sharon.* The USA needs to stop, so that there is a better chance of forcing Sharon to stop. That's what I think.

*In case you didn't get the full conatations of this -
The USA supports Sharon's 'terrorist' actions. The USA, under Bush, purports to be conducting a 'War on Terror' which they are trying hard to convince the rest of the world is not simply an imperialistic, anti-Muslim war for oil and markets, which it clearly is.
This is why everyone hates the US right now. They are not only hypocritical, but also stupid at the same time. It's quite an achievement for one president.
This is why Bush is a joke. This is why you should vote for someone else. maybe Kerry will still support Israel (he probably will) and you will still be hypocritical, but hey, the US has always been a hypocrite, and at least you wouldn't look so damn stupid.

 

[LordOpie]

then the palestinians go back to being low-paid laborers in israeli factories, continue to out-multiply the israelis, and eventually peacefully "take over" most of the region. by this i mean jews, jewish arabs and non-jew arabs peacefully living intermingled in proportional numbers in all areas (as in not having the palestinians all far away from the red sea, etc.).

because the world needs yet another arab-muslim country. It's so sad that they don't have their own countries and have no representation in world politics.

 

[Changleen]

because the world needs yet another arab-muslim country. It's so sad that they don't have their own countries and have no representation in world politics.

So now you want to play god and decide how many people of a given race or creed there are in the world?

 

[Toshi]

Changleen, i have no illusions about kerry, and you shouldn't either. when asked about iran during debate #1 he said that the u.s. should do something about iran ("getting tough", meh), because iran is a threat to israel, a threat to the united states, and a threat to the world. in that very order.

 

[LordOpie]

I said that?

 

[Changleen]

Changleen, i have no illusions about kerry, and you shouldn't either. when asked about iran during debate #1 he said that the u.s. should do something about iran ("getting tough", meh), because iran is a threat to israel, a threat to the united states, and a threat to the world. in that very order.

Let's all vote Nader then! Dude, I would love for that guy to have a chance of getting in, but it ain't gonna happen this time round.

 

[Changleen]

because the world needs yet another arab-muslim country. It's so sad that they don't have their own countries and have no representation in world politics.

You were asking to decide if we thought there weren't enough Arab-Muslim countries already...

 

[LordOpie]

You were asking to decide if we thought there weren't enough Arab-Muslim countries already...

how many muslim countries are there? how many jewish countries?

 

[Changleen]

OMG!


I'm out of here, before you start a new religious war!:nuts:

 

[Toshi]

how many muslim countries are there? how many jewish countries?

how many countries are there for half-japanese people? how many countries are there for gay penguins who eat 12 grain bread?

where are you going with this line of thought?

 

[LordOpie]

oh, right, y'all hate jews and want to see the destruction of the only jewish country. Viva los Muslims!

Toshi, since you're half-jap, are you also telling us that you like to have sex with male penguins with regular bowel movements? If so, no worries, Burly likes Dolphins. It's all good.

 

[Toshi]

nono, i'm speaking up for gay penguin rights because i'm the vice presidential candidate on the gay penguin ticket. sheesh . you should pay more attention to Skookum...

 

[genpowell71]

nono, i'm speaking up for gay penguin rights because i'm the vice presidential candidate on the gay penguin ticket. sheesh . you should pay more attention to Skookum...

What the hay-ell does this have to do with killing muslims and Jews?

 

[genpowell71]

My question is why does no one recognize Israel's righ to defenc their ouwn country? They are the ones that get bombed contantly. AND its no short of the terrorists going after the "soft" civilain targets like buses and bus stations. These butt-clowns say they are at war against the infidel. Ok... Surah 33:8 from the quran says: That ((Allah)) may question the (custodians) of Truth concerning the Truth they (were charged with): And He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty. Where does it say in the Bible to attack the civilian (non-combatants)?

 

[nicklin]

My question is why does no one recognize Israel's righ to defenc their ouwn country? They are the ones that get bombed contantly. AND its no short of the terrorists going after the "soft" civilain targets like buses and bus stations.

beats me. i think people DID forget about the war.......these damn hippies need to put down the weed and read some history.......the real one.

 

[MikeD]

beats me. i think people DID forget about the war.......these damn hippies need to put down the weed and read some history.......the real one.

Is that the one where the Palestinians didn't exist prior to Israel's founding (often tendered by pro-Israeli arguments, but not true...there's some evidence to the effect that the Muslim population in Palestine grew in the late 1890s as Jews began to settle there, but that's it) or that the Zionists never used terrorism against the British or militia violence against the native Arab population?

Again, though, you'll see that I've never said Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself. Its existence isn't a moral point; it's a fact of power, and the citizens of Israel should expect their government to protect them/ensure their safety.

All I've said is that 1) Complaining about the Palestinian's methods as immoral (instead of simply fighting them, or finding a lasting political solution) is hypocritical, 2) Israel's current policies aren't helping its security, and 3) if Israel truly wants peace, it will have to make concessions in geography and politics. And even concessions aren't going to be a guarantee...

There are a lot of radical Palestinians who (quite comprehensibly) don't want peace, just like the radical elements of Israeli society, and the Palestinian leadership under Arafat was a self-serving den of gangsters and vampires who fed off the conflict, and when faced with serious political attempts to end the violence, were unable (due to their reliance of radicals) and unwilling (because of the self-marginalization) to make it happen.

So yeah, Opie will sling more mud at me, but I don't have a solution to all this. But I didn't create the problem...Israel did, by the very act of creating itself.

MD