The future of 4X?
- Thread starter kOlsen
- Start date
Here here!
Good stuff there Phil, and hearing what you said at Schladming at the alliance meeting was really interesting, and I think a lot of riders, myself included, learnt a fair bit more about what really goes on when trying to plan and build a track.
there are a few other things I'll talk about also while I know Phil will read this, these are just my opinions, but I say this with wanting 4X to be better for everyone.
Firstly the gate, it's always been an issue to a lot of people, I believe the current BMX gate is the fairest system for the start, for many reasons. Because its available for anyone to practice, at their local BMX track, therefore, anyone can practice and get good at it, especially as BMX gates all over the world are much more of a standard thing now. You an bet your local tracks gate is very similar (angle of the gate and drop speed of the gate)to what will be put in front of you at a race.
People love to blame the gate for getting smoked out of the start, but how much effort do those people make towards getting better at their gates? In almost all cases, next to none! They want to be as fast as anyne else out of the start with not effort put towards it. For grassroots levels of riding, maybe you can only manage getting to a track once every couple weeks, but that is enough time to build a solid gate technique, if your serious about your racing.
Ill use my own Girlfriend as an example, about 4 years ago she decided she wanted to ride a bit, and wanted to learn how to do a good gate. I told her to start with the basics, bring the bike underneath you, and bring your bars to your hips as you get on the gas on the snap, witha bit of advice, and watching some other riders with good gates, within 15 gates she had a good solid technique going, not trying to do anything too fancy, and another 15 gates later had her timing pretty dialled, and she's had a good gate ever since. She only rides once in a blue moon, but her gate is always good still, it's not that hard! She is very much into dancing, so timing and body positions probably come easier to her than some, but its still something that can be easily learnt by anyone.
I think the 10 meter rule is good also, and ill use Vigo 2007 as an example, there was 2 cranks out of the gate, then the transition at the bottom of the ramp, straight into the first little double, when theres only 2 cranks out of the gate it puts even more emphasis on the snap itself, if you messed up the snap, you were screwed! If theres atleast a little bit of room after that to put in a few pedals strokes (pedal power is part of riding a bike, and sprint training is a big part of anyone serious about 4X or BMX, just like intervals are to DH training) then you can mess up your gate a bit and still have a chance at getting some gas down and making up for it a bit. At Vigo 2007 I didn't see anyone exit the first corner in the lead that came from any lane other than 1. Not saying it needs to be 50 meter drag strip, theres a lot involved in the planning and building that can affect this, but it needs to be a serious consideration.
Schladming this year was the same, whoever had the inside lane won pretty much everytime.
I think Andorra this year was the best 1st straight, a bit of pedalling out of the start, jumps were a bit small, but flowed well, a few more cranks in random spots, and a good turn that couldn't be divebomed, I also messed it up in the final this year, and I payed the price for it, which is what I deserved, and I lost the race, but it made for good racing.
Like I said before also, when there is a short straight it played into my hands perfectly this year, as I qualified 1st at almost all the world cups, and it made my day a whole lot easier most of the time, but I don't see it as being fair for everyone, competing, not to mention the short 1st straights lead to blatant contact. No one wants to have their race ruined by someone who rode over their head into a turn.
Also there is much more to being fast out of the start than the snap, pedalling technique for maximum power transfer through the cranks, and body position after the gate to get the gas down on your 2nd crank onwards. The old Norba 7 second, complete random (the gate just dropped, no cadence at all) probably gave the BMX guys even more advantage, as the have trained their bodies for pedalling technique and power transfer, so they were still out first every time.
No matter what the type of gate it is, the guys that do the training and put in the hours are still going to be out first everytime.
Its like saying you want to be a top world Cup DH racer without ever getting on your bike for some DH runs,
- Hardtail VS Dually.
I think even if the tracks get rougher, hardtails will still be the go, I do DH runs on my hardtail all the time, and once you are fully comfortable on a hardtail through the rough stuff, you can get pretty wild on them, they just bounce around a lot. I've done timed DH runs on DH tracks, on both my hardtail, and short travel, and the times were no different. I found what the hardtail lacks in tracking in corners and absorbing the hits, it makes up for in rolling faster, as there is no suspension to drain youir speed over every bump. Thats just my preference though, which is why im pretty much always on my hardtail, but everyone is different.
there are a few other things I'll talk about also while I know Phil will read this, these are just my opinions, but I say this with wanting 4X to be better for everyone.
Firstly the gate, it's always been an issue to a lot of people, I believe the current BMX gate is the fairest system for the start, for many reasons. Because its available for anyone to practice, at their local BMX track, therefore, anyone can practice and get good at it, especially as BMX gates all over the world are much more of a standard thing now. You an bet your local tracks gate is very similar (angle of the gate and drop speed of the gate)to what will be put in front of you at a race.
People love to blame the gate for getting smoked out of the start, but how much effort do those people make towards getting better at their gates? In almost all cases, next to none! They want to be as fast as anyne else out of the start with not effort put towards it. For grassroots levels of riding, maybe you can only manage getting to a track once every couple weeks, but that is enough time to build a solid gate technique, if your serious about your racing.
Ill use my own Girlfriend as an example, about 4 years ago she decided she wanted to ride a bit, and wanted to learn how to do a good gate. I told her to start with the basics, bring the bike underneath you, and bring your bars to your hips as you get on the gas on the snap, witha bit of advice, and watching some other riders with good gates, within 15 gates she had a good solid technique going, not trying to do anything too fancy, and another 15 gates later had her timing pretty dialled, and she's had a good gate ever since. She only rides once in a blue moon, but her gate is always good still, it's not that hard! She is very much into dancing, so timing and body positions probably come easier to her than some, but its still something that can be easily learnt by anyone.
I think the 10 meter rule is good also, and ill use Vigo 2007 as an example, there was 2 cranks out of the gate, then the transition at the bottom of the ramp, straight into the first little double, when theres only 2 cranks out of the gate it puts even more emphasis on the snap itself, if you messed up the snap, you were screwed! If theres atleast a little bit of room after that to put in a few pedals strokes (pedal power is part of riding a bike, and sprint training is a big part of anyone serious about 4X or BMX, just like intervals are to DH training) then you can mess up your gate a bit and still have a chance at getting some gas down and making up for it a bit. At Vigo 2007 I didn't see anyone exit the first corner in the lead that came from any lane other than 1. Not saying it needs to be 50 meter drag strip, theres a lot involved in the planning and building that can affect this, but it needs to be a serious consideration.
Schladming this year was the same, whoever had the inside lane won pretty much everytime.
I think Andorra this year was the best 1st straight, a bit of pedalling out of the start, jumps were a bit small, but flowed well, a few more cranks in random spots, and a good turn that couldn't be divebomed, I also messed it up in the final this year, and I payed the price for it, which is what I deserved, and I lost the race, but it made for good racing.
Like I said before also, when there is a short straight it played into my hands perfectly this year, as I qualified 1st at almost all the world cups, and it made my day a whole lot easier most of the time, but I don't see it as being fair for everyone, competing, not to mention the short 1st straights lead to blatant contact. No one wants to have their race ruined by someone who rode over their head into a turn.
Also there is much more to being fast out of the start than the snap, pedalling technique for maximum power transfer through the cranks, and body position after the gate to get the gas down on your 2nd crank onwards. The old Norba 7 second, complete random (the gate just dropped, no cadence at all) probably gave the BMX guys even more advantage, as the have trained their bodies for pedalling technique and power transfer, so they were still out first every time.
No matter what the type of gate it is, the guys that do the training and put in the hours are still going to be out first everytime.
Its like saying you want to be a top world Cup DH racer without ever getting on your bike for some DH runs,
- Hardtail VS Dually.
I think even if the tracks get rougher, hardtails will still be the go, I do DH runs on my hardtail all the time, and once you are fully comfortable on a hardtail through the rough stuff, you can get pretty wild on them, they just bounce around a lot. I've done timed DH runs on DH tracks, on both my hardtail, and short travel, and the times were no different. I found what the hardtail lacks in tracking in corners and absorbing the hits, it makes up for in rolling faster, as there is no suspension to drain youir speed over every bump. Thats just my preference though, which is why im pretty much always on my hardtail, but everyone is different.
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Indeed. In road racing a weekend worth of competition including a road race, a time trial and a crit are normally included in an omnium.
BTW: I think it is really cool to have major players of the WC commenting on here! Props to all of you!
This is one reason why I love mountainbiking! 
I can't agree with Jared more.... I can't tell you how many times while training at the BMX track (on my gates) pretty much 99% of the mtb guys would show up for practice and just coast out of the gate and try and nail the one fun rythm section on the track, or clear the one fairly small triple and make it look cool. It really doesn't matter how fast you can get through the rythm or if you can clear the triple if your going to be the last guy getting there.
Eventhough 4X is not BMX, the gate-start and the first straight is of great importance if not the most important. It does not matter the style of the gate (UCI, ABA, random, old slalom style,) the racers with a strong gate will always get out the fastest, which aside from slalom is a very big advantage, and in slalom it's also a good advantage (makes other guy push harder and better chances of makng a mistake).
Whenever 4x is brought up on these forums it is always mentioned that all anyone wants to see out of 4x (including the UCI) is crashes. Is this accepted "fact" really true?
To me, crashes in 4x or DS ruin the racing. Once a crash occurs the leader sits up and the others race to be the first to pick up thier bike while accidentally stepping on the others bikes. Sure, it provides a little comic relief but isn't as exciting as close racing. I know when I watched the DS finals at the Sea Otter this year that when the crashes occurred in the first couple of turns, it just ruined the excitment in the crowd.
So, can we all just stop saying the only thing of value that comes out of 4x racing is crashing?
Am I the only one that thinks like this, or am I just not redneck enough?
Oh yeah - on the flip side, the one thing that seems to be repeated a lot about DS is that it's too complicated for people to understand. I disagree with this statement too (although I know some people won't agree with me). Fans know the riders and know the rules. Casual observers are really only looking at the racing of the current race and don't even seem to notice or care who advances. This may not be the case for TV but is what I've seen during live racing. And, if you explain how it works people seem to pick it up quickly.
To me, crashes in 4x or DS ruin the racing. Once a crash occurs the leader sits up and the others race to be the first to pick up thier bike while accidentally stepping on the others bikes. Sure, it provides a little comic relief but isn't as exciting as close racing. I know when I watched the DS finals at the Sea Otter this year that when the crashes occurred in the first couple of turns, it just ruined the excitment in the crowd.
So, can we all just stop saying the only thing of value that comes out of 4x racing is crashing?
Am I the only one that thinks like this, or am I just not redneck enough?
Oh yeah - on the flip side, the one thing that seems to be repeated a lot about DS is that it's too complicated for people to understand. I disagree with this statement too (although I know some people won't agree with me). Fans know the riders and know the rules. Casual observers are really only looking at the racing of the current race and don't even seem to notice or care who advances. This may not be the case for TV but is what I've seen during live racing. And, if you explain how it works people seem to pick it up quickly.
Cheers guys, hope this stuff is of interest to people.
Ben, I?d love to come boarding again. I?m sure I?ll be there at some point this winter. Deffo going to Co. to meet some mates who live there. Nice interview in Dirtmag by the way and thanks for the props!!
Stik, I think it would take some time for an Omnium title to develop respect from the cycling press, but I think it would be good for 4x for sure and maybe for gravity as a whole. Who knows, I?m just a track designer. It would be interesting to see other opinions on this, racers, teams, public, sponsors etc. Maybe a new thread?
Dump, Omnium is the word the Sea Otter guys gave to the combined title for DH and DS together (Correct me if I?m wrong). More commonly used in track cycling, the word comes from Latin Omnia meaning, everything (again, correct me if I?m wrong), so Omnium at Sea Otter means every gravity discipline.
MDJ, I?m with you on the crash thing. I don?t want riders getting injured and I want to see good clean racing. But, to the uninformed majority of the population who don?t ride bikes and have a lesser understanding of MTB, crashes probably rule. (Maybe best if you don?t click the link at the bottom of this post!)
Jared, thanks for standing up and giving such considered and objective opinions. You?re a worthy 4X Champion in every way! If everyone had your way of making suggestions we?d be a lot closer to the 4X we all want to see. I think this public forum is a great way to discuss the options and I hope other WC riders will chime in too.
Anyway, back to the tracks?
First straights are probably the most important part of the track. As a track designer, I want to get all the riders down the first straight and round the first corner without crashes and without one rider far and away ahead. I want it to be fair for everyone with a mix of obstacles and I want it long enough for riders to be settled into the riding before they go into the first turn. It?s obvious for people to see when a straight is too short leading to carnage in turn 1. See the video link posted below for evidence! For these reasons a WC start straight should always be 30m or more. If it?s less than this it is due to uncontrollable circumstances, rather than by design.
Unfortunately this happens far more often than it should at WC level. Why is this?
4X is a mountain bike discipline and as such should always take place on a hillside. Steeper the better. Every hillside is a different shape, so you can?t have a strict rule on length, as with BMX.
A first straight needs to be long, but it can?t be steep as well. We?ve all seen trails (dirt jumps) built going downhill. Due to the pump, and gravity, riders pick up speed very fast. The jumps need to get longer and bigger very quickly or else the riders have no chance of catching backsides. There?s a big risk of crashing from overjumping. So, a long and steep first straight would give riders huge speed needing a massive berm to get them safely around the first corner. You can solve these problems if you have lots of dirt to build such big features. But in practice the budgets and construction logistics won?t allow for this. Building long steep first straights without lots of dirt, and a big first turn is not an option for safety reasons.
This leaves you 2 options ? a short steep first straight, or, a bench cut straight cutting across the slope. The short steep straight is the last resort, worst of both worlds. The bench cut first straight is ideal as it allows you to decide the exact gradient and length of the straight.
To summarise:
1. Long and steep with lots of dirt = good (Les Gets 03)
2. Long and flatter = good (FW 07-09)
3. Long and steep/flat without lots of dirt = bad (MSA 04)
4. Short and steep = bad (Schladming 09 and others)
5. Short and flat =bad (Vigo 07)
(not rocket science!)
So, you would always go for option 1 or 2. However, there are almost always restrictions that prevent this. These restrictions are usually either cash, or site related issues. Lets take Schladming as an example.
The hillside at Schladming has almost perfect topography for building 4X tracks. There is a wide range of gradients, lots of space and 95% visibility. The problem comes when you want to dig into the ground. To make a 4X track on a steep slope you need to dig a bench cut. If you don?t do this and simply run the track down the steep hill, races get too fast and there is zero chance of overtaking. The steeper the ground the deeper the bench cut must be. As Schladming is a fully functioning ski hill, the piste is criss-crossed with a network of underground cables and pipes that look like a tight spiders web when viewed on a map. We can only dig into the hill in spots where there are no cables. So there?s not much space to put in a bench cut for a good first straight. (I?ve cut many cables and pipes at Schladming!).
There is an area much lower down the hillside where it?s flatter (>less deep bench cut necessary) and there are fewer cables. We could definitely build a good first straight there. BUT, we would lose 60% of space above to build the rest of the track.
The track designer needs to decide which of the 2 options is better. Personally, I err towards the longer track with crapper first straight, rather than a short track with a good first straight. Check videos of Schladming 08 and Schladming 09. In 08 we were forced to use the short track due to construction elsewhere on the piste. In 09 we went for the long track. Riders generally preffered the long track, even with the crap start straight.
There is always a compromise that has to be made. After building nearly 50 World Cup 4X tracks I can?t mention 1 instance where we?ve not had to compromise in a way similar to the one above. I just have to hope that riders understand that the track layout on the hill is the best possible within the parameters given to me as a designer.
As 4X gets bigger and hopefully gains some sponsorship interest, cash will reduce this degree of compromise.
PS: Someone sent me this link today. It?s a crash compilation from WCs and Worlds over the last 5 years. Probably not everyone?s cup of tea but if you show your non-riding mates, they may be interested.
Ben, I?d love to come boarding again. I?m sure I?ll be there at some point this winter. Deffo going to Co. to meet some mates who live there. Nice interview in Dirtmag by the way and thanks for the props!!
Stik, I think it would take some time for an Omnium title to develop respect from the cycling press, but I think it would be good for 4x for sure and maybe for gravity as a whole. Who knows, I?m just a track designer. It would be interesting to see other opinions on this, racers, teams, public, sponsors etc. Maybe a new thread?
Dump, Omnium is the word the Sea Otter guys gave to the combined title for DH and DS together (Correct me if I?m wrong). More commonly used in track cycling, the word comes from Latin Omnia meaning, everything (again, correct me if I?m wrong), so Omnium at Sea Otter means every gravity discipline.
MDJ, I?m with you on the crash thing. I don?t want riders getting injured and I want to see good clean racing. But, to the uninformed majority of the population who don?t ride bikes and have a lesser understanding of MTB, crashes probably rule. (Maybe best if you don?t click the link at the bottom of this post!)
Jared, thanks for standing up and giving such considered and objective opinions. You?re a worthy 4X Champion in every way! If everyone had your way of making suggestions we?d be a lot closer to the 4X we all want to see. I think this public forum is a great way to discuss the options and I hope other WC riders will chime in too.
Anyway, back to the tracks?
First straights are probably the most important part of the track. As a track designer, I want to get all the riders down the first straight and round the first corner without crashes and without one rider far and away ahead. I want it to be fair for everyone with a mix of obstacles and I want it long enough for riders to be settled into the riding before they go into the first turn. It?s obvious for people to see when a straight is too short leading to carnage in turn 1. See the video link posted below for evidence! For these reasons a WC start straight should always be 30m or more. If it?s less than this it is due to uncontrollable circumstances, rather than by design.
Unfortunately this happens far more often than it should at WC level. Why is this?
4X is a mountain bike discipline and as such should always take place on a hillside. Steeper the better. Every hillside is a different shape, so you can?t have a strict rule on length, as with BMX.
A first straight needs to be long, but it can?t be steep as well. We?ve all seen trails (dirt jumps) built going downhill. Due to the pump, and gravity, riders pick up speed very fast. The jumps need to get longer and bigger very quickly or else the riders have no chance of catching backsides. There?s a big risk of crashing from overjumping. So, a long and steep first straight would give riders huge speed needing a massive berm to get them safely around the first corner. You can solve these problems if you have lots of dirt to build such big features. But in practice the budgets and construction logistics won?t allow for this. Building long steep first straights without lots of dirt, and a big first turn is not an option for safety reasons.
This leaves you 2 options ? a short steep first straight, or, a bench cut straight cutting across the slope. The short steep straight is the last resort, worst of both worlds. The bench cut first straight is ideal as it allows you to decide the exact gradient and length of the straight.
To summarise:
1. Long and steep with lots of dirt = good (Les Gets 03)
2. Long and flatter = good (FW 07-09)
3. Long and steep/flat without lots of dirt = bad (MSA 04)
4. Short and steep = bad (Schladming 09 and others)
5. Short and flat =bad (Vigo 07)
(not rocket science!)
So, you would always go for option 1 or 2. However, there are almost always restrictions that prevent this. These restrictions are usually either cash, or site related issues. Lets take Schladming as an example.
The hillside at Schladming has almost perfect topography for building 4X tracks. There is a wide range of gradients, lots of space and 95% visibility. The problem comes when you want to dig into the ground. To make a 4X track on a steep slope you need to dig a bench cut. If you don?t do this and simply run the track down the steep hill, races get too fast and there is zero chance of overtaking. The steeper the ground the deeper the bench cut must be. As Schladming is a fully functioning ski hill, the piste is criss-crossed with a network of underground cables and pipes that look like a tight spiders web when viewed on a map. We can only dig into the hill in spots where there are no cables. So there?s not much space to put in a bench cut for a good first straight. (I?ve cut many cables and pipes at Schladming!).
There is an area much lower down the hillside where it?s flatter (>less deep bench cut necessary) and there are fewer cables. We could definitely build a good first straight there. BUT, we would lose 60% of space above to build the rest of the track.
The track designer needs to decide which of the 2 options is better. Personally, I err towards the longer track with crapper first straight, rather than a short track with a good first straight. Check videos of Schladming 08 and Schladming 09. In 08 we were forced to use the short track due to construction elsewhere on the piste. In 09 we went for the long track. Riders generally preffered the long track, even with the crap start straight.
There is always a compromise that has to be made. After building nearly 50 World Cup 4X tracks I can?t mention 1 instance where we?ve not had to compromise in a way similar to the one above. I just have to hope that riders understand that the track layout on the hill is the best possible within the parameters given to me as a designer.
As 4X gets bigger and hopefully gains some sponsorship interest, cash will reduce this degree of compromise.
PS: Someone sent me this link today. It?s a crash compilation from WCs and Worlds over the last 5 years. Probably not everyone?s cup of tea but if you show your non-riding mates, they may be interested.
1:32, Sam Hill doing his usual and running a mile to the inside of the corner. Looks like Ft. William '04, pretty sure he wound up on the podium too?
I really liked seeing EC's world-championship-winning move in Les Gets at 1:47 - 1:52. Pretty cool to see it from that reverse angle. Still one of the sickest, smoothest maneuvers ever.
And I'm trying not to sound too starstruck, but thanx to Carter, Graves, and Saxena for lending their measured, experienced, and most importantly impassioned voices to the 4X debate. It's fun to read, and really the reason I visit this site, to be honest.
And I'm trying not to sound too starstruck, but thanx to Carter, Graves, and Saxena for lending their measured, experienced, and most importantly impassioned voices to the 4X debate. It's fun to read, and really the reason I visit this site, to be honest.
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This thread actually turned into something cool!
Thanks to EC, Gravey and Mr Saxena.
Thanks to EC, Gravey and Mr Saxena.
Phil,
I feel for ya on the build out's, it is difficult when you have to work within a budget that is almost impossible to build a worthy course with, and usually when the budget is unrealistically low the organizer has no passion or desire to do what is necessary.. so often it is twice as hard before you even look at the hill.
I don't think first straights are as important as the ability to get the group of riders through relatively safely (oxy moron i know) longer usually is safer but not a necessity, IMO as long as riders come out with a chance of being in the mix then it is a success....
The usual problem is after the first turn there is not a lot of room to pass, so the guy with inside usually hole shots, runs inside lines and takes the win.
I think that speed has to be compromised in every corner, not stop and go with flat turns but you should have to scrub speed..... especially if you are in the lead to protect the inside lines... the first corner of the worlds in 04 was a perfect turn, it was impossible to block every line... if you charged up the inside you drift wide, if you go slow to try to block the inside riders could carry speed around the outside, the turn had a very open flat inside with good banking way outside.
The whole deal of big obstacles and bumps on the insides of corners is very hard to get right without months of races and revisions.
The general formula i think should be turns that don't have berms that are super cupped out in the middle and exit so riders cant rail at full speed, only the entrance should have good cup with the berm tapering off as it continues, to get to the good stuff to carry speed you leave the inside wide open... if you take an inside blocking line it should compromise your exit and make you drift to the outside...
the difference is super subtle just enough to cause traction loss.
The most important part is that the speed carried by the 2 through 4 riders has enough time to materialize into a pass at the end of the straights...
All the wow factor of jumps are less important then entrance and exit speeds for the riders in different positions as far as racing is concerned...
Leader should always have to block the inside by slowing down and using brakes...2 through 4 can take various lines to have more exit speed.
These types of turns will not have many riders happy at first.. especially the hard core BMX crowd, lots of complaints about crappy flow and the course sucks will come up (not unlike now really) but these types of turns will weed out the skilled riders and will showcase creative passing lines.
As far as hard tails and full suspension, i have tried everything to even the field out... big rocks, small rocks, moto whoops...nothing really worked..... i think if i ever build another 4x course i will try to put small high frequency bumps, the kind you would see when there is a lot of car traffic on a dirt road... when i ride through these types of bumps on a hard tail there is a marked difference in speed versus a full suspension.
Phil PM me your e mail so we can catch up and i can take some pics and show you what i mean.
Jared your doing the rainbows proud by being vocal on stuff like this.... especially in a non self serving way.
I feel for ya on the build out's, it is difficult when you have to work within a budget that is almost impossible to build a worthy course with, and usually when the budget is unrealistically low the organizer has no passion or desire to do what is necessary.. so often it is twice as hard before you even look at the hill.
I don't think first straights are as important as the ability to get the group of riders through relatively safely (oxy moron i know) longer usually is safer but not a necessity, IMO as long as riders come out with a chance of being in the mix then it is a success....
The usual problem is after the first turn there is not a lot of room to pass, so the guy with inside usually hole shots, runs inside lines and takes the win.
I think that speed has to be compromised in every corner, not stop and go with flat turns but you should have to scrub speed..... especially if you are in the lead to protect the inside lines... the first corner of the worlds in 04 was a perfect turn, it was impossible to block every line... if you charged up the inside you drift wide, if you go slow to try to block the inside riders could carry speed around the outside, the turn had a very open flat inside with good banking way outside.
The whole deal of big obstacles and bumps on the insides of corners is very hard to get right without months of races and revisions.
The general formula i think should be turns that don't have berms that are super cupped out in the middle and exit so riders cant rail at full speed, only the entrance should have good cup with the berm tapering off as it continues, to get to the good stuff to carry speed you leave the inside wide open... if you take an inside blocking line it should compromise your exit and make you drift to the outside...
the difference is super subtle just enough to cause traction loss.
The most important part is that the speed carried by the 2 through 4 riders has enough time to materialize into a pass at the end of the straights...
All the wow factor of jumps are less important then entrance and exit speeds for the riders in different positions as far as racing is concerned...
Leader should always have to block the inside by slowing down and using brakes...2 through 4 can take various lines to have more exit speed.
These types of turns will not have many riders happy at first.. especially the hard core BMX crowd, lots of complaints about crappy flow and the course sucks will come up (not unlike now really) but these types of turns will weed out the skilled riders and will showcase creative passing lines.
As far as hard tails and full suspension, i have tried everything to even the field out... big rocks, small rocks, moto whoops...nothing really worked..... i think if i ever build another 4x course i will try to put small high frequency bumps, the kind you would see when there is a lot of car traffic on a dirt road... when i ride through these types of bumps on a hard tail there is a marked difference in speed versus a full suspension.
Phil PM me your e mail so we can catch up and i can take some pics and show you what i mean.
Jared your doing the rainbows proud by being vocal on stuff like this.... especially in a non self serving way.
I think you've hit the nail on the head with a lot of your points again there EC, I had a think about a few of your points, especially the tapered berm exits, and I think that would be perfect, A big problem with racing, is that you get the inside line divebombers who rely on a nice berm exit to pull of their move, and almost always, they just square off the exit, they smash the guy they are trying to pass over the turn, and they keep going. But a tapered exit would make them think twice about pulling a crazy move, and make them rely on skill to keep traction, rather than relying on a nice steep bermed exit to square off. It would at the very least make them come in a little slower, maybe there still would be contact, but atleast it would slow them down, and they probably might just bump into the other guy, instead of blasting him side on.
One concern though I have with certain passing opportunities in corners, is when there are too many lines, like the first turn in Belgium this year, far too widely flagged, and impossible to cover yourself, the guy behind could see if you were setting up wide or on the inside, and they would go whichever way you weren't, and they would then either blast you up the inside if you went wide, Or if you went inside, they would go outside and pass you on the next straight.
Im all for passing opportunities, but in this case, you were screwed either way, I felt very VERY lucky that things went my way that night, so many guys were getting screwed over. On a track like that, a lot of the time it punished the guy that had a good start, and thats not a good thing either.
Thats a big reason why I'm a fan of long technical straights, thats where I feel skill comes more into it and passing will almost always be clean.
Something involving big doubles and rough as all hell sections as well, all mixed up in one straight, Like a rock garden, to a pair of big doubles, into a rough section where random holes/piles of dirt have been built, and then a small techy tight rhythum section, into the next corner, the ultimate mix of MTB and BMX.
The idea of sections where you have to scrub speed are also really good, or man up and try and go no brakes, the rock Garden in MSA this year was perfect for that, I got it no brakes in practice a couple times, but I was on the verge of explosion evertime.
Iv'e also had this idea for a while of a mid track section of about 4 slalom turns, 2 lanes, on plain grass, no berms or any of that, and once you are committed to a lane you have to stay there, until the end of the section, Like the Jeep series starts, but further down the track, and with careful planning to make both lanes even. It wouldn't work on any hill, but if the hill was right for it and could be built even for both sides, it would be rad.
Imagine a World Cup final, the guy in 2nd is right on the wheel of the guy in the lead, they hit the section of slalom turns, the guy in 2nd hits them on faster, and exits the section in the lead, that would be rad! the track could have a slalom aspect to it. Just an Idea iv'e had, feel free to shut me down if you can't see it working Phil.
Everyone was into the slalom type sections in Maribor and Schladming this year, but they were very one line-ish, too tight for passing, but if there were 2 seperate lanes, then whoever has the cornering skills has an edge, they wouldn't be stuck behind the guy in front, but they would have to be exactly the same though, or it wouldn't work. But whip out a tape measure, get both sides set exactly the same, and it could be wild!
One concern though I have with certain passing opportunities in corners, is when there are too many lines, like the first turn in Belgium this year, far too widely flagged, and impossible to cover yourself, the guy behind could see if you were setting up wide or on the inside, and they would go whichever way you weren't, and they would then either blast you up the inside if you went wide, Or if you went inside, they would go outside and pass you on the next straight.
Im all for passing opportunities, but in this case, you were screwed either way, I felt very VERY lucky that things went my way that night, so many guys were getting screwed over. On a track like that, a lot of the time it punished the guy that had a good start, and thats not a good thing either.
Thats a big reason why I'm a fan of long technical straights, thats where I feel skill comes more into it and passing will almost always be clean.
Something involving big doubles and rough as all hell sections as well, all mixed up in one straight, Like a rock garden, to a pair of big doubles, into a rough section where random holes/piles of dirt have been built, and then a small techy tight rhythum section, into the next corner, the ultimate mix of MTB and BMX.
The idea of sections where you have to scrub speed are also really good, or man up and try and go no brakes, the rock Garden in MSA this year was perfect for that, I got it no brakes in practice a couple times, but I was on the verge of explosion evertime.
Iv'e also had this idea for a while of a mid track section of about 4 slalom turns, 2 lanes, on plain grass, no berms or any of that, and once you are committed to a lane you have to stay there, until the end of the section, Like the Jeep series starts, but further down the track, and with careful planning to make both lanes even. It wouldn't work on any hill, but if the hill was right for it and could be built even for both sides, it would be rad.
Imagine a World Cup final, the guy in 2nd is right on the wheel of the guy in the lead, they hit the section of slalom turns, the guy in 2nd hits them on faster, and exits the section in the lead, that would be rad! the track could have a slalom aspect to it. Just an Idea iv'e had, feel free to shut me down if you can't see it working Phil.
Everyone was into the slalom type sections in Maribor and Schladming this year, but they were very one line-ish, too tight for passing, but if there were 2 seperate lanes, then whoever has the cornering skills has an edge, they wouldn't be stuck behind the guy in front, but they would have to be exactly the same though, or it wouldn't work. But whip out a tape measure, get both sides set exactly the same, and it could be wild!
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Jared, I love this idea! I've thought similar things before but never had the balls to try it for a WC track. As I mentioned earlier, unfortunately the WC tracks end up being my R and D lab. Get it wrong and there's a load of angry riders baying for blood! I nearly put the slalom section half way down the first straight at Fort William in 2007. Not sure it would have worked there, but mid track on a suitable hillside it would rule. Could also help lure in the DS purists too maybe???
EC, great idea with the berms that taper towards the exit. I'll do some thinking on this and we can send some drawings back and forth. I'll pm you in the morning. Also like the high frequency bumps idea.
It's great that you guys are coming forward with these ideas. Anyone got any more input/opinions on these concepts? I think there are a few UK guys with good ideas who'll be posting over the next few days.
I wonder, could we build all this into the track at Windham and make it the best WC 4X ever??
EC, great idea with the berms that taper towards the exit. I'll do some thinking on this and we can send some drawings back and forth. I'll pm you in the morning. Also like the high frequency bumps idea.
It's great that you guys are coming forward with these ideas. Anyone got any more input/opinions on these concepts? I think there are a few UK guys with good ideas who'll be posting over the next few days.
I wonder, could we build all this into the track at Windham and make it the best WC 4X ever??
I'd be there with my shovel
To be fair here i haven't been to any world cups in the last couple of years, so things may have changed a bit?
Jared,
The big BMX turns do enable riders to blow into other riders... because they have the gravity of the top of the berm to ride down and get speed back.
keep in mind that the turns i am describing would be hardly noticeable... super subtle really, so it would take a bit of doing to get em right.
Your comments on Belgium last year sound exactly like the type of racing i would like to see, i know it sounds odd but i would love to see it that you can't block every line.
If it would be possible then riders in front would usually win... which is what we see now.
It just needs to be that way from top to bottom, If the leader was shuffled back to 3rd or 4th on the 2nd straight and then back to the front on the next straight I think it would be very exciting? The course Jacobs built in TAZ looked to be really good from this stand point?
I think that in order for people to get behind it the leader needs to be at somewhat of a disadvantage and is almost forced to protect the inside line so they don't get blown out.
I personally loved racing on sections where every time through it i wasn't sure where to go and literally had to decide based on how the heat was shaking out, and that goes for being in front or behind... it just made it exciting.
Phil,
Your point of WC being your test lab brings up a point that i have always felt... simple is better... we are always trying to come up with new awesome jumps and sections.
I really think it should go back to simple sections with one section per course that is trying something new....when to many new types of obstacles are tried the chance of a complete failure is possible...as is the chance of complete success, but i think so far we have shown that a big % of the time crazy stuff turns into 1 line.
There is plenty of slope to build on in Windham but if they make you build inside the half pipe good luck!
Jared,
The big BMX turns do enable riders to blow into other riders... because they have the gravity of the top of the berm to ride down and get speed back.
keep in mind that the turns i am describing would be hardly noticeable... super subtle really, so it would take a bit of doing to get em right.
Your comments on Belgium last year sound exactly like the type of racing i would like to see, i know it sounds odd but i would love to see it that you can't block every line.
If it would be possible then riders in front would usually win... which is what we see now.
It just needs to be that way from top to bottom, If the leader was shuffled back to 3rd or 4th on the 2nd straight and then back to the front on the next straight I think it would be very exciting? The course Jacobs built in TAZ looked to be really good from this stand point?
I think that in order for people to get behind it the leader needs to be at somewhat of a disadvantage and is almost forced to protect the inside line so they don't get blown out.
I personally loved racing on sections where every time through it i wasn't sure where to go and literally had to decide based on how the heat was shaking out, and that goes for being in front or behind... it just made it exciting.
Phil,
Your point of WC being your test lab brings up a point that i have always felt... simple is better... we are always trying to come up with new awesome jumps and sections.
I really think it should go back to simple sections with one section per course that is trying something new....when to many new types of obstacles are tried the chance of a complete failure is possible...as is the chance of complete success, but i think so far we have shown that a big % of the time crazy stuff turns into 1 line.
There is plenty of slope to build on in Windham but if they make you build inside the half pipe good luck!
I agree totally that you shouldn't be able to cover every line, someone should be able to pass you on a differnt line IF they hit the turn faster than you.
Almost all the top riders agreed that they didn't like the first turn in Belgium, because it came down too much to luck, it was far too easy to get blasted and spat back to last. The only people that liked the turn were ther slower guys, coz it gave them a chance to advance.
I'm not saying this is totally a bad thing, the 90% of guys that make up a world cup field that have never made a big final should have an even chance. But it's not fair racing either when the fastest guy loses out, just because he is in the lead.
Also I feel it wasn't a good turn because it was the first turn on the track, when everyone was still very bunched up, it would have worked better further down the track, but being in turn 1, you got spat back to 4th straight away with no exit speed, and your race was most likely over.
Any regular top 10 guy, is a top 10 guy beause of talent, training and hard work, World Cups are too expensive to get to (travelling all over the world) and too much training is put in by some, for a race to be decided almost at a roll of the dice. which is what the 1st turn almost was.
the racing by finals was clean and worked well, as the guys from round of 16 onwards are all experienced racers, and mostly keep it clean and fair, but it was sketchy in early rounds as the lesser experinced guys just came in pinned over their heads and caused crashed left and right. There were passing opportunities in turn 2 and the 2nd-last turn that worked better, still some heavy contact going on, but it was mostly clean moves.
I understand the whole side of what people want to see, but as racers you want the racing to be fair and clean. People might also like to see crashes and all that, but too many crashes is what makes it look like a circus sometimes.
I think passes should be Because someone had a crafty, sometimes even sneaky line, and had the skills to pull it off cleanly. If there is an exessive amount of contact, that doesn't make for fair racing, and the circus will continue.
I totally agree that a rider should be almost forced to take the inside line, to protect his position, but the inside line is always harder to ride fast than a berm on the outside, so if they hit the inside fast, they shoud'nt get passed by a rider who went for the berm and carried more exit speed down the next straight either, unless they were slow through the inside. the problem is, like you said also, it takes a lot of time to get flags right and berms shaped right, to make both options the same speed and built so the more skilled rider can utilize his skills. I think some kind of formula for berms needs to be made, that ensures both lines are as close to equal as possible.
Almost all the top riders agreed that they didn't like the first turn in Belgium, because it came down too much to luck, it was far too easy to get blasted and spat back to last. The only people that liked the turn were ther slower guys, coz it gave them a chance to advance.
I'm not saying this is totally a bad thing, the 90% of guys that make up a world cup field that have never made a big final should have an even chance. But it's not fair racing either when the fastest guy loses out, just because he is in the lead.
Also I feel it wasn't a good turn because it was the first turn on the track, when everyone was still very bunched up, it would have worked better further down the track, but being in turn 1, you got spat back to 4th straight away with no exit speed, and your race was most likely over.
Any regular top 10 guy, is a top 10 guy beause of talent, training and hard work, World Cups are too expensive to get to (travelling all over the world) and too much training is put in by some, for a race to be decided almost at a roll of the dice. which is what the 1st turn almost was.
the racing by finals was clean and worked well, as the guys from round of 16 onwards are all experienced racers, and mostly keep it clean and fair, but it was sketchy in early rounds as the lesser experinced guys just came in pinned over their heads and caused crashed left and right. There were passing opportunities in turn 2 and the 2nd-last turn that worked better, still some heavy contact going on, but it was mostly clean moves.
I understand the whole side of what people want to see, but as racers you want the racing to be fair and clean. People might also like to see crashes and all that, but too many crashes is what makes it look like a circus sometimes.
I think passes should be Because someone had a crafty, sometimes even sneaky line, and had the skills to pull it off cleanly. If there is an exessive amount of contact, that doesn't make for fair racing, and the circus will continue.
I totally agree that a rider should be almost forced to take the inside line, to protect his position, but the inside line is always harder to ride fast than a berm on the outside, so if they hit the inside fast, they shoud'nt get passed by a rider who went for the berm and carried more exit speed down the next straight either, unless they were slow through the inside. the problem is, like you said also, it takes a lot of time to get flags right and berms shaped right, to make both options the same speed and built so the more skilled rider can utilize his skills. I think some kind of formula for berms needs to be made, that ensures both lines are as close to equal as possible.
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I just thought of a prime example to explain what why I don't like a first turn like Belgium.
In my semi final. It was Myself, Romain Saladini, and the brothers Atherton. I got the holeshot, went inside on turn 1, trying to cover my inside, Dan Atherton Dove in deep underneath me right by the flag, it was a clean pass, risky for Dan with how slippery the inside was, but he pulled it off and there was no contact, so it was clean, he had just pulled off a tighter, more difficult line and deserved to pass, Saladini saw this happening and braked up early, and swooped under me, all fair/clean/smart and good racing to watch as well. I lost out on these 2 because I didn't hit the best line I could, and wasn't aggressive enough, so that part is all good.
What I think wasn't fair for all racers, was that Gee Atherton who was last by a mile out of the start, just rode the main berm line in turn 1, the easiest line, and swooped back under us all. This all sounds fair, There was no contact by anyone, so what is my problem?
Gee is an extremly skilled rider, and he has more than enough skill to still be at the top of 4X even with no specific 4X training for the past 12 months. No question there. Myself, Saladini, had both qualified a fair bit faster than Gee, showing that we had more track speed on that track, and Dan being just a fraction slower than Gee in qualifying, but almost exactly the same. In this turn, in a race situation, you couldn't ride the main berm line if you were leading, you would get passed by someone up the inside everytime, and you would get shut down on the exit. So the only option if you were in front was for an inside line, there was limited exit speed, but it was your ONLY chance. Myself, Saladini and Dan all went inside knowing this, Gee was back in last, went the easy outside, rode the safest line, and exited in front of ALL of us. The Guy who was slowest to that part of the track, rode the easiest line, and was rewarded in the best way possible for it.
The corner was so big and widely flagged that if you were in last, you had all the room in the world to do whatever you wanted.
Maybe we shouldn't have all just dived for the inside in that turn, but what are you going to do when your in the lead, your'e certainly not going to leave 50ft of clear track to your inside on a turn.
How is it fair that the guy who was in last, who was slower in qualifying (showing he wasn't fastest on the track) and ridden the easiest line get to the lead, all while the riders in front did everything they could, and didn't make a mistake get passed. To me thats not good fair racing. Theres far too much luck in that scenario. A corner like that certainly doesn't make for fair racing.
Just "one of those things" that happen in racing, maybe, but this happened many times that day.
I know there is people who still won't agree with me here, fair enough, but thats how i see it, and that's my opinion.
In summary, i'll just say that I think there are still many, largely unexplored options, for better passing and racing, things like long/rough/techy straights (potentially into turns with muliple lines) and split slalom type sections, where balls, and skills are rewarded in a fashion that is fair for everyone, not to mention would be damn good to watch! You should never be penalized, just because you are in front of a race.
Im off now to do slalom practice, to build cornering skills, to help keep my title next year!
In my semi final. It was Myself, Romain Saladini, and the brothers Atherton. I got the holeshot, went inside on turn 1, trying to cover my inside, Dan Atherton Dove in deep underneath me right by the flag, it was a clean pass, risky for Dan with how slippery the inside was, but he pulled it off and there was no contact, so it was clean, he had just pulled off a tighter, more difficult line and deserved to pass, Saladini saw this happening and braked up early, and swooped under me, all fair/clean/smart and good racing to watch as well. I lost out on these 2 because I didn't hit the best line I could, and wasn't aggressive enough, so that part is all good.
What I think wasn't fair for all racers, was that Gee Atherton who was last by a mile out of the start, just rode the main berm line in turn 1, the easiest line, and swooped back under us all. This all sounds fair, There was no contact by anyone, so what is my problem?
Gee is an extremly skilled rider, and he has more than enough skill to still be at the top of 4X even with no specific 4X training for the past 12 months. No question there. Myself, Saladini, had both qualified a fair bit faster than Gee, showing that we had more track speed on that track, and Dan being just a fraction slower than Gee in qualifying, but almost exactly the same. In this turn, in a race situation, you couldn't ride the main berm line if you were leading, you would get passed by someone up the inside everytime, and you would get shut down on the exit. So the only option if you were in front was for an inside line, there was limited exit speed, but it was your ONLY chance. Myself, Saladini and Dan all went inside knowing this, Gee was back in last, went the easy outside, rode the safest line, and exited in front of ALL of us. The Guy who was slowest to that part of the track, rode the easiest line, and was rewarded in the best way possible for it.
The corner was so big and widely flagged that if you were in last, you had all the room in the world to do whatever you wanted.
Maybe we shouldn't have all just dived for the inside in that turn, but what are you going to do when your in the lead, your'e certainly not going to leave 50ft of clear track to your inside on a turn.
How is it fair that the guy who was in last, who was slower in qualifying (showing he wasn't fastest on the track) and ridden the easiest line get to the lead, all while the riders in front did everything they could, and didn't make a mistake get passed. To me thats not good fair racing. Theres far too much luck in that scenario. A corner like that certainly doesn't make for fair racing.
Just "one of those things" that happen in racing, maybe, but this happened many times that day.
I know there is people who still won't agree with me here, fair enough, but thats how i see it, and that's my opinion.
In summary, i'll just say that I think there are still many, largely unexplored options, for better passing and racing, things like long/rough/techy straights (potentially into turns with muliple lines) and split slalom type sections, where balls, and skills are rewarded in a fashion that is fair for everyone, not to mention would be damn good to watch! You should never be penalized, just because you are in front of a race.
Im off now to do slalom practice, to build cornering skills, to help keep my title next year!
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Jared what your saying sounds logical and as a former World Cup racer i know it can be frustrating when a rider who doesn't even focus on the 4x discipline is able to stay even with the pack even without being aggressive....The old Ft William first turn was like that.
Your point about it being in the first turn and that it could work better from the stand point of being later in the race does make a lot of sense as the turn sounds like it had the makings of a lot of crashes, which is what is trying to be averted here, and not being there or even seeing it i have to trust what your saying,
I think the overall theory i am trying to convey is that the leader shouldn't be so heavily rewarded with a parade following him to the finish... I can remember World Cups where my whole bike set up as far as gears and tire choice was for the qualifier, knowing that if i won the qualifier that lane 1 was such an advantage that even with a bad start it would be hard to lose.
I do have to say, reading your description and picturing it in my mind i started to feel like i was actually at the event or even racing in the heat.... Your description doesn't solidify the point your trying to make, i say that jokingly, but really What you described sounds very exciting from a stand point of spectators watching... ultimately for 4x to continue to grow and thrive i believe exactly what you described is what is needed.
you described 4 passes in 1 turn, and all of it was legitimate clean hard racing.
Food for thought, At Worlds in 04 i had 3rd lane choice for the finals, I let Prokop have 3 and took lane 4 knowing that it was going to get ugly on the inside....Prokop i knew couldn't get over to lane 1 in time to completely cut of Deldycke and i also knew Deldycke wasn't going to back off with it being in his home country, Roger was the wild card that i hoped was going to get cut off by Prokop... so instead of trying to drag race everyone to the inside knowing what was going to happen i took a different strategy,
I made a strategical choice to not try to drag race to the inside spot, and fortunately it worked out for me.
In Belgium you had first gate choice and could have taken lane 4, maybe with your start you could have cut everyone off shutting everyone down and if that didn't work your back up plan could have been to swing it wide, rail the berm and pass everyone in the next straight, again i wasn't there just thinking on the board from what you described.
That type of strategical thought i think is another good facet of Racing 4x.
Your point about it being in the first turn and that it could work better from the stand point of being later in the race does make a lot of sense as the turn sounds like it had the makings of a lot of crashes, which is what is trying to be averted here, and not being there or even seeing it i have to trust what your saying,
I think the overall theory i am trying to convey is that the leader shouldn't be so heavily rewarded with a parade following him to the finish... I can remember World Cups where my whole bike set up as far as gears and tire choice was for the qualifier, knowing that if i won the qualifier that lane 1 was such an advantage that even with a bad start it would be hard to lose.
I do have to say, reading your description and picturing it in my mind i started to feel like i was actually at the event or even racing in the heat.... Your description doesn't solidify the point your trying to make, i say that jokingly, but really What you described sounds very exciting from a stand point of spectators watching... ultimately for 4x to continue to grow and thrive i believe exactly what you described is what is needed.
you described 4 passes in 1 turn, and all of it was legitimate clean hard racing.
Food for thought, At Worlds in 04 i had 3rd lane choice for the finals, I let Prokop have 3 and took lane 4 knowing that it was going to get ugly on the inside....Prokop i knew couldn't get over to lane 1 in time to completely cut of Deldycke and i also knew Deldycke wasn't going to back off with it being in his home country, Roger was the wild card that i hoped was going to get cut off by Prokop... so instead of trying to drag race everyone to the inside knowing what was going to happen i took a different strategy,
I made a strategical choice to not try to drag race to the inside spot, and fortunately it worked out for me.
In Belgium you had first gate choice and could have taken lane 4, maybe with your start you could have cut everyone off shutting everyone down and if that didn't work your back up plan could have been to swing it wide, rail the berm and pass everyone in the next straight, again i wasn't there just thinking on the board from what you described.
That type of strategical thought i think is another good facet of Racing 4x.
Geez, we could go on forever talking about this haha!
when I say you have been one of my biggest influences in my 4X career, probably the biggest thing I got from seeing you race was that you always used your head and experience, something I have struggled with at times, as my natural approach is to just go all out from the start. I agree totally that a smart racer should be rewarded.
I Totally agree again that the racing I described sounds exciting to watch, which I think I should have mentioned, but from a racers point of view it was not a good thing, to me it brought too much luck into it. No doubt it was good for some, but not all, probably half hated it and half loved it. The half that loved it were into it because they probably don't have the skills to compete with the guys they were racing on a level playing field. the half that hated it weren't into it because they could see some 'interesting" moves being pulled by anyone coming 3rd or 4th. I think this is a situation better avoided.
Like I said, maybe further down the track, but not for turn 1. No spectator wants to see a mad dash to the first turn, then half the feild get shut down/crashed, and have the first 2 roll through the rest of the run to advance.
Ive watched your first turn from Les Gets a million times, it did play out perfectly for you, and it was definately good to watch, and got the crowd going, I love first turns like that! But I see the 2 turns we're talking about as being very different, to me you would have still exited that 1st turn in the lead even had Prokop and Deldycke not made contact, simply because you railed the outside of the first turn, and then cut hard inside for the second part of the turn and with better exit speed, you being agressive and cornering skills is what won you that race, not sitting right back and waiting for the carngae to unfold.
Plus in Les Gets, the line you took had completely different exit lines, if you entered inside you exited outside, if you entered outside, you exited inside, so clean passes could be made, Belgiums 1st corner had both inside and outside metting up at the exact same spot at the exit.
In Belgium, A smart move by Gee, maybe, but very lucky that we all bunched together in turn 1. It could be written off as a racing thing, but like I said before, it happened way too many times that night. Maybe I could have gone lane 4 and cut everyone off down the first stright, but thats a very hard decision to make when you have that inside lane choice, Saladinis 1st straights were on that night and I wasn't about to give him the inside.
I know the description I made, makes it sound exciting and all that, and I 100% agree that better spectating is the key thing for 4X to grow, but when the guy in 4th gets rewarded for sitting back it grows the circus sideshow tag even more, I also beleive that fair racing where no rider feels hard done by for what ever reason will grow 4X at a grass roots level, right through to world cup level, which is equally important.
To me, Racing would be better to watch if riders were rewarded for hitting a ballsy gap, or nailing a rough section to the point of being almost out of control, or railing a slippery flat turn, it would be fairer for all, and be more fun to ride/compete in.
I think we mostly have pretty much the same views on things, and hopefully we have acheived something positive so far.
when I say you have been one of my biggest influences in my 4X career, probably the biggest thing I got from seeing you race was that you always used your head and experience, something I have struggled with at times, as my natural approach is to just go all out from the start. I agree totally that a smart racer should be rewarded.
I Totally agree again that the racing I described sounds exciting to watch, which I think I should have mentioned, but from a racers point of view it was not a good thing, to me it brought too much luck into it. No doubt it was good for some, but not all, probably half hated it and half loved it. The half that loved it were into it because they probably don't have the skills to compete with the guys they were racing on a level playing field. the half that hated it weren't into it because they could see some 'interesting" moves being pulled by anyone coming 3rd or 4th. I think this is a situation better avoided.
Like I said, maybe further down the track, but not for turn 1. No spectator wants to see a mad dash to the first turn, then half the feild get shut down/crashed, and have the first 2 roll through the rest of the run to advance.
Ive watched your first turn from Les Gets a million times, it did play out perfectly for you, and it was definately good to watch, and got the crowd going, I love first turns like that! But I see the 2 turns we're talking about as being very different, to me you would have still exited that 1st turn in the lead even had Prokop and Deldycke not made contact, simply because you railed the outside of the first turn, and then cut hard inside for the second part of the turn and with better exit speed, you being agressive and cornering skills is what won you that race, not sitting right back and waiting for the carngae to unfold.
Plus in Les Gets, the line you took had completely different exit lines, if you entered inside you exited outside, if you entered outside, you exited inside, so clean passes could be made, Belgiums 1st corner had both inside and outside metting up at the exact same spot at the exit.
In Belgium, A smart move by Gee, maybe, but very lucky that we all bunched together in turn 1. It could be written off as a racing thing, but like I said before, it happened way too many times that night. Maybe I could have gone lane 4 and cut everyone off down the first stright, but thats a very hard decision to make when you have that inside lane choice, Saladinis 1st straights were on that night and I wasn't about to give him the inside.
I know the description I made, makes it sound exciting and all that, and I 100% agree that better spectating is the key thing for 4X to grow, but when the guy in 4th gets rewarded for sitting back it grows the circus sideshow tag even more, I also beleive that fair racing where no rider feels hard done by for what ever reason will grow 4X at a grass roots level, right through to world cup level, which is equally important.
To me, Racing would be better to watch if riders were rewarded for hitting a ballsy gap, or nailing a rough section to the point of being almost out of control, or railing a slippery flat turn, it would be fairer for all, and be more fun to ride/compete in.
I think we mostly have pretty much the same views on things, and hopefully we have acheived something positive so far.
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Eric & Jared-
What do you guys think of bringing dual slalom back to the World Cups? The few dual races this year at non-WC seemed to be popular.
What do you guys think of bringing dual slalom back to the World Cups? The few dual races this year at non-WC seemed to be popular.
Jared,
Your points are made very well, Like i mentioned i wasn't in Belgium and i haven't seen it... the point you made about sitting back and waiting for riders to blow each other up and it lending itself to the side show persona of 4x is a very good point that i agree with.
I know most don't like Nascar here, but i do and watch it often.... this past weekend i was frustrated by watching Jimmy Johnson sit back all day and wait for "the big one" and just drive around the other cars that wrecked.... it questioned the credibility
( which i know most already do anyhow, ha ha) my point is that it is the same with the description you have described about sitting back and waiting for a crash.
Your correct in the fact that i was going into the lead at Les Gets either way, just a little bigger lead due to the riders contact.
Hopefully a good formula will evolve that will create good clean passing and hard exciting racing?
Your points are made very well, Like i mentioned i wasn't in Belgium and i haven't seen it... the point you made about sitting back and waiting for riders to blow each other up and it lending itself to the side show persona of 4x is a very good point that i agree with.
I know most don't like Nascar here, but i do and watch it often.... this past weekend i was frustrated by watching Jimmy Johnson sit back all day and wait for "the big one" and just drive around the other cars that wrecked.... it questioned the credibility
( which i know most already do anyhow, ha ha) my point is that it is the same with the description you have described about sitting back and waiting for a crash.
Your correct in the fact that i was going into the lead at Les Gets either way, just a little bigger lead due to the riders contact.
Hopefully a good formula will evolve that will create good clean passing and hard exciting racing?
EC - agreed again.
Nagaredama - I was wondering when someone would mention bringing in Slalom at some world cups. Ill keep it brief as I want to go riding again, but I think it would bring even more division to this topic and wouldn't be a good thing. The general feeling of this thred (atlest in the latter part) is that 4X is looking up, and hopefully will soon be better in all areas and gain momentum towards being a great thing.
To me bringing back slalom would add fuel to the fire on the negative side to discussions like this.
UCI have backed 4X and it has taken an upward turn this year, so we need to give it every chance and 100% backing to hopefully let it reach its potential.
Not to mention an even bigger reason, that the 4X v Slalom debate never gets mentioned in any country rather other than the US. In Europe 4X is doing quite well, and growing rapidly, and has far bigger race participation numbers than in the US.
If there is one self serving reason I have for contributing to this thread, is that I would rather be riding and racing inthe US, and the banter that went on at the start of the thread just does damage to the sport as a whole, and especially racing, and I wouuld love to see racing come back to the US like it was in the 90's. But until racing in the US grows again, and as it continues to grow in Europe, the big events will mostly be held there.
While the US gave birth to MTB and will always be it's home, both MTB racing and recreational riding is definately far stronger in Europe right now.
Nagaredama - I was wondering when someone would mention bringing in Slalom at some world cups. Ill keep it brief as I want to go riding again, but I think it would bring even more division to this topic and wouldn't be a good thing. The general feeling of this thred (atlest in the latter part) is that 4X is looking up, and hopefully will soon be better in all areas and gain momentum towards being a great thing.
To me bringing back slalom would add fuel to the fire on the negative side to discussions like this.
UCI have backed 4X and it has taken an upward turn this year, so we need to give it every chance and 100% backing to hopefully let it reach its potential.
Not to mention an even bigger reason, that the 4X v Slalom debate never gets mentioned in any country rather other than the US. In Europe 4X is doing quite well, and growing rapidly, and has far bigger race participation numbers than in the US.
If there is one self serving reason I have for contributing to this thread, is that I would rather be riding and racing inthe US, and the banter that went on at the start of the thread just does damage to the sport as a whole, and especially racing, and I wouuld love to see racing come back to the US like it was in the 90's. But until racing in the US grows again, and as it continues to grow in Europe, the big events will mostly be held there.
While the US gave birth to MTB and will always be it's home, both MTB racing and recreational riding is definately far stronger in Europe right now.
Interesting. How come? Better riding? Better $$? When I lived in New Zealand (not that its the same
) I thought the whole DH scene there was pretty rad.In my perfect world, the hub of world MTB racing would be in Australia, I could be at home 90% of the year, and just travel to races as they happen, and come straight home again. Racing in Australia is getting bigger every year, but you'll never make a cent and be able to make it your career unless you go race overseas.Interesting. How come? Better riding? Better $$? When I lived in New Zealand (not that its the same
There are only 2 places in the world you will ever make money from racing MTB, and that is the US and Europe. If you want to race at the top level of the sport, the only place to be is racing World Cups, which are mostly in Europe.
Back 10 years ago, the biggest races were in the US, therefore thats where the highest level of racing was, the sponsorships and the most money, but thats not the case today, racing is far bigger in Europe.
Yeti being a US company is why I still spend a good amount of time in the US, theres next to no money at most of the races, but they are a company 100% committed to racing and growing it, and hopefully getting it back to where it was in the 90's. So I do my bit to help out the US race scene by supporting as many events as I can. The poinless banter at the start of this thread was doing nothing to help the US race scene, it was doing the opposite.
I'm saying I would prefer to be in the US over Europe. Everything about the US is more like Australia, and I feel more comfortable and at home in the US than Europe, Weather is better, the food is better, TV is waaaaaaay better ect ect, but while the biggest races are in Europe, thats mostly where i'll be. Iv'e grown to like Europe more than I used to, but you still feel very far away from home when you are there.
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Going to catch up a bit here with a few points (thread is moving pretty fast now):
Equality of start straight lanes.
Yes, start straights should always be equal for every lane and in an ideal world they would be. Unfortunately Im often on my own or with a very small team of workers at World Cups during race week. Well usually have to prioritise work over the whole track. Combined with event set up tasks, seemingly small bits of work often get left out in favour of other jobs. This last season was particularly bad due to the timetable. Having XC, DH and 4X on the same day put a huge pressure on volunteer numbers at most events. Big thank you to all the WC riders who helped me out digging during race weeks this year. This is happening more and more and it makes a big difference to the finished event. I hope this trend continues.
Some of the lane equality issues could be addressed during the initial build. However, the first straight is usually the first bit of MTB track the digger driver has ever built. Logistically you need to start building at the top of the hill. When youve got only 2 weeks to build 500m of track, you cant afford to spend ages getting the first straight perfect. Prime example of this was South Africa 09. Watch the videos and you can see the top 60% track is pretty good but then the remainder is boring flat out stuff with zero passing. We spent too much time getting the start right and then machine breakdowns and weather meant we had no time at the bottom.
Short jumps, Andorra first straight.
The first straight at Andorra is long. With a long straight its possible for powerful riders to reach a very high speed and build an unassailable lead before the first turn. I dont think you can put tech rock sections mid first straight to slow them up, so you need another way to slow the riders down. The theory is that by building short, but importantly, safe jumps, the riders need to control their speed more to catch the backside of the jump and get a pump. If they go too fast they lose the pump and a lot of speed. In this way, a rider pumping and rolling will be only slightly behind a rider pedalling and controlling his speed. I do think that riders should just train harder to get more power, but at the same time, not everyone is a full time racer and therefore not everyone has time to train outside work. When 4X is massive and the top 64 are all pro this wont be an issue. Also, some riders are incredibly skilful and deserve to be at the top of the sport, but their genes dont give them the power in the first place. These are the guys who often make the most exciting passes in a race, purely down to their skills. I want to help keep them in the game until later on the track.
First turn warfare.
A big wide open turn is almost always better than a tight sketchy one. I think Maribor has the best turn 1 on the whole circuit. Houffalize is good for some but not others but its still better than Schladming 09 and Bromont 09. Bromont this year was spoilt by the carnage in the first turn. As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, the turn had to be much tighter this year, due to restrictions on how far onto the ski piste the first turn could be built. The organisers knew the risk but there was no other option.
This inevitably led to a lot of crashes in the first turn. After Bromont, I thought a lot about Schladming for the WC finals. It had a similar tight turn to Bromont, but a very short start straight too so I knew we would have bigger problems. I had to go back to Schladming after Bromont anyway, in order to build the pro section of jumps. I decided to put an inside catch berm in the first turn, something Id never normally do for a first turn (everyone gets forced to go to the inside as its so much quicker - go outside = go home, like Canberra 08). When building this I decided to build it as a catch berm rather than a standard cupped berm. It was much lower than the outside berm and also a funny shape, missing its first 30%. It was It wasnt easy to ride, with no entrance riders had to drift to get into it. Many riders struggled with this but I think it evened things out. There was a lot of rider discussion as many top riders didnt like it. I was under a lot of pressure to take it out, but I felt there would have been a lot of big crashes without it.
So in Schladming, riders in gate 1 had to take a sketchy, risky slow line in order to defend the inside line. Other slower riders could take the outside longer and slower line and carry more speed out of the turn into the second straight, setting them up better for turn 2. This brings me to the next point .
Rider race strategy.
I think an important factor in 4X racing should be rider thinking and smart racing. Cedric Gracia (among others) has been doing this ever since he started 4X. If he had a bad start, hed rail every corner outside, whilst the other riders ahead hugged the inside battling for the short line. Cedric would carry more speed and pass lower down the track as at Lugano 03. Obviously this is something the tracks need to improve on, to allow more of, but its a difficult aspect to manage.
True, the first turn at Houffalize is maybe too open and there are too many lines. For 2010, Id like to address this. I still want to maintain the number of lines but Id like to omit the take outs that occurred at the end of turn 1. It has to be said that the public watching that night, did enjoy the racing at Houffalize as there were so many options in the turns. EC, Houffalize is an example of a track where I had to keep it simple and in a lot of ways I think it worked out for the best, as you suggested above re keep it simple.
EC, Another great piece of advice you gave me when I started WC track building was to talk to the mid pack riders a lot more, perhaps even more than the top guys. The top guys would have the skills to ride everything well anyway, but making the track better for the slightly slower guys would have more of an effect on the whole event for the viewing public by keeping them in the hunt longer.
Speaking to the mid pack guys, a lot of them are either younger riders or less powerful riders. It is these guys who seem to really like first straights where you hang back and watch where everyone else goes. I think this thought/strategy process is really important, interesting to watch and is something that differentiates 4X massively from BMX.
WC 4X training sessions.
(This bit is just an observation and Im sure some riders will have been doing this for years anyway)
Over the time Ive been doing the WCs, its been really interesting to watch the way rides train before the event. First training session riders would usually just train the fastest line for them down the hillside. This would be due to the qualifying mechanism where its just the rider against the clock, no need to worry about sniping from the inside etc. This way of training was totally understandable. After qualifying riders should then have realised that they need to train all the lines on the track as during racing, they wouldnt necessarily be in the lead. Over previous seasons, riders would still train individually after qualifying and strangely, still only train the same fast line. During racing theyd go off that line and be screwed as they just didnt know what to do.
This has taken a long time to come into effect but riders are realising its really important. I think its starting to show in the races. Best way to train for passing during a race is not to simply go down the gym and squat 200lbs or whatever. Best is to get on track with 3 other riders and each take different lines and put yourself in those alternative positions on the track. Test which lines are faster and under what circumstances. Good example of riders using this technique this season have been Jared and Dan Atherton or Filip Polc. The German guys do it too, Tshugg, Fishbach and Meyenbourg. Its happening more and its great for the development of 4X. A particularly good example has been the RSP team, Joost Wichman, Thomas Slavik, Jurg Maijer and Joey van Vehgel. Youll always see them in the gate, practising racing together all the way down the track , having some pretty epic battles just during practice sessions!
Hopefully, this thread will help to show people the depth of thought and development that there is in 4X, and the amount of thought and development that is still to come. With new, non WC 4X tracks cropping up here and there, new ideas can be tested and tried and perfected before arriving on the WC scene. - Trickle up technology! This can only be a good thing and its pretty exciting to me.
Also, to qualify a lot that I've written, some of it is just my own opinion and feel free to shoot me down. It all goes into the melting pot and if we avoid the early thread slagging, theis thread could have some really positive results.
Equality of start straight lanes.
Yes, start straights should always be equal for every lane and in an ideal world they would be. Unfortunately Im often on my own or with a very small team of workers at World Cups during race week. Well usually have to prioritise work over the whole track. Combined with event set up tasks, seemingly small bits of work often get left out in favour of other jobs. This last season was particularly bad due to the timetable. Having XC, DH and 4X on the same day put a huge pressure on volunteer numbers at most events. Big thank you to all the WC riders who helped me out digging during race weeks this year. This is happening more and more and it makes a big difference to the finished event. I hope this trend continues.
Some of the lane equality issues could be addressed during the initial build. However, the first straight is usually the first bit of MTB track the digger driver has ever built. Logistically you need to start building at the top of the hill. When youve got only 2 weeks to build 500m of track, you cant afford to spend ages getting the first straight perfect. Prime example of this was South Africa 09. Watch the videos and you can see the top 60% track is pretty good but then the remainder is boring flat out stuff with zero passing. We spent too much time getting the start right and then machine breakdowns and weather meant we had no time at the bottom.
Short jumps, Andorra first straight.
The first straight at Andorra is long. With a long straight its possible for powerful riders to reach a very high speed and build an unassailable lead before the first turn. I dont think you can put tech rock sections mid first straight to slow them up, so you need another way to slow the riders down. The theory is that by building short, but importantly, safe jumps, the riders need to control their speed more to catch the backside of the jump and get a pump. If they go too fast they lose the pump and a lot of speed. In this way, a rider pumping and rolling will be only slightly behind a rider pedalling and controlling his speed. I do think that riders should just train harder to get more power, but at the same time, not everyone is a full time racer and therefore not everyone has time to train outside work. When 4X is massive and the top 64 are all pro this wont be an issue. Also, some riders are incredibly skilful and deserve to be at the top of the sport, but their genes dont give them the power in the first place. These are the guys who often make the most exciting passes in a race, purely down to their skills. I want to help keep them in the game until later on the track.
First turn warfare.
A big wide open turn is almost always better than a tight sketchy one. I think Maribor has the best turn 1 on the whole circuit. Houffalize is good for some but not others but its still better than Schladming 09 and Bromont 09. Bromont this year was spoilt by the carnage in the first turn. As I think I mentioned earlier in the thread, the turn had to be much tighter this year, due to restrictions on how far onto the ski piste the first turn could be built. The organisers knew the risk but there was no other option.
This inevitably led to a lot of crashes in the first turn. After Bromont, I thought a lot about Schladming for the WC finals. It had a similar tight turn to Bromont, but a very short start straight too so I knew we would have bigger problems. I had to go back to Schladming after Bromont anyway, in order to build the pro section of jumps. I decided to put an inside catch berm in the first turn, something Id never normally do for a first turn (everyone gets forced to go to the inside as its so much quicker - go outside = go home, like Canberra 08). When building this I decided to build it as a catch berm rather than a standard cupped berm. It was much lower than the outside berm and also a funny shape, missing its first 30%. It was It wasnt easy to ride, with no entrance riders had to drift to get into it. Many riders struggled with this but I think it evened things out. There was a lot of rider discussion as many top riders didnt like it. I was under a lot of pressure to take it out, but I felt there would have been a lot of big crashes without it.
So in Schladming, riders in gate 1 had to take a sketchy, risky slow line in order to defend the inside line. Other slower riders could take the outside longer and slower line and carry more speed out of the turn into the second straight, setting them up better for turn 2. This brings me to the next point .
Rider race strategy.
I think an important factor in 4X racing should be rider thinking and smart racing. Cedric Gracia (among others) has been doing this ever since he started 4X. If he had a bad start, hed rail every corner outside, whilst the other riders ahead hugged the inside battling for the short line. Cedric would carry more speed and pass lower down the track as at Lugano 03. Obviously this is something the tracks need to improve on, to allow more of, but its a difficult aspect to manage.
True, the first turn at Houffalize is maybe too open and there are too many lines. For 2010, Id like to address this. I still want to maintain the number of lines but Id like to omit the take outs that occurred at the end of turn 1. It has to be said that the public watching that night, did enjoy the racing at Houffalize as there were so many options in the turns. EC, Houffalize is an example of a track where I had to keep it simple and in a lot of ways I think it worked out for the best, as you suggested above re keep it simple.
EC, Another great piece of advice you gave me when I started WC track building was to talk to the mid pack riders a lot more, perhaps even more than the top guys. The top guys would have the skills to ride everything well anyway, but making the track better for the slightly slower guys would have more of an effect on the whole event for the viewing public by keeping them in the hunt longer.
Speaking to the mid pack guys, a lot of them are either younger riders or less powerful riders. It is these guys who seem to really like first straights where you hang back and watch where everyone else goes. I think this thought/strategy process is really important, interesting to watch and is something that differentiates 4X massively from BMX.
WC 4X training sessions.
(This bit is just an observation and Im sure some riders will have been doing this for years anyway)
Over the time Ive been doing the WCs, its been really interesting to watch the way rides train before the event. First training session riders would usually just train the fastest line for them down the hillside. This would be due to the qualifying mechanism where its just the rider against the clock, no need to worry about sniping from the inside etc. This way of training was totally understandable. After qualifying riders should then have realised that they need to train all the lines on the track as during racing, they wouldnt necessarily be in the lead. Over previous seasons, riders would still train individually after qualifying and strangely, still only train the same fast line. During racing theyd go off that line and be screwed as they just didnt know what to do.
This has taken a long time to come into effect but riders are realising its really important. I think its starting to show in the races. Best way to train for passing during a race is not to simply go down the gym and squat 200lbs or whatever. Best is to get on track with 3 other riders and each take different lines and put yourself in those alternative positions on the track. Test which lines are faster and under what circumstances. Good example of riders using this technique this season have been Jared and Dan Atherton or Filip Polc. The German guys do it too, Tshugg, Fishbach and Meyenbourg. Its happening more and its great for the development of 4X. A particularly good example has been the RSP team, Joost Wichman, Thomas Slavik, Jurg Maijer and Joey van Vehgel. Youll always see them in the gate, practising racing together all the way down the track , having some pretty epic battles just during practice sessions!
Hopefully, this thread will help to show people the depth of thought and development that there is in 4X, and the amount of thought and development that is still to come. With new, non WC 4X tracks cropping up here and there, new ideas can be tested and tried and perfected before arriving on the WC scene. - Trickle up technology! This can only be a good thing and its pretty exciting to me.
Also, to qualify a lot that I've written, some of it is just my own opinion and feel free to shoot me down. It all goes into the melting pot and if we avoid the early thread slagging, theis thread could have some really positive results.
again Phil, good points, still learning myself more of the finer points of what goes on behind the scenes. Totally agree with what you said about South africa. the bottom was crap, but the top was rad.
Start straights being even, I understand what your saying, but it doesnt have to be anything drastic, but a good level slope out of the gate for all 4 lanes, as well as the gate dropping flush with the dirt would be nice. so there isn't a drop off once you get past the end of the gate. It looks far more professional too. That would be far less of an issue and easier to build for, should the new pro gates be at all the races next year. Just that gate design will bring more consistancy into the start, which will favour the less experienced guys who currently, with the old gates seem to have far more trouble adapting when the gate angle and drop[ speed is different from race to race, compared to the more experienced guys who pick up the changes much quicker.
Andorra, yeah that all makes good sense, I had thought as much, it for sure brings in more skill to ride that 1st straight fast. The jumps were short, but still flowed well, which was the key to it still working good for all riders. Im bummed we arent going back there next year.
I agree things are tougher when you arent a full time racer, but it all comes down to time management, there is a ton of top level BMX racers who still race at the top of the highest level who work full time jobs. It makes it harder for sure, but if someone really wants to suceed, they will find a way to make it work and get the training done.
Strategy - I definately agree also with talking to more mid pack guys, its the only way to get everyones opinions, and make racing fairer for all. From my experince though a lot of them just want to dumb things down to make it easier for themselves, but there are also a lot of genuinely good thoughts out there.
Cedric is definately a racer who has acheived results at 4X through his skills and smarts, and they should be rearded, I find him a good clean racer also. He was pulling rad high low swoop passes in turn 1 in South Africa. Passes like that are cool, maybe 4x just needs some more crafty riders like him? One problem with a lot of BMX converts is that they are so used to playing follow the leader in BMX they don't think outside the square enough to get the most out of the track in 4X.
Practice - one of the cool things to come out out 4X this year for me, was that you had to use your practice time more efficiently, try all the options and not just always ride the fast qualifying lines, just like you mentioned. Evspecially things like the rock gardens were making me second and triple guess my tire/rim/tube combinations, it's bringing bike setup more into the equation, and it's rad!
I think a big problem also is that most people don't realize some of the finer points of 4X, what it takes to build a cool track that is good to race, and what its like to race them, and that it's still a very new discipline and it will no doubt get more figured out and improve.
I wont have any net access from tomorrow until early next week, but im sure ill have more to say when I can get back online. Hopefully theres more positive things to discuss then!
Start straights being even, I understand what your saying, but it doesnt have to be anything drastic, but a good level slope out of the gate for all 4 lanes, as well as the gate dropping flush with the dirt would be nice. so there isn't a drop off once you get past the end of the gate. It looks far more professional too. That would be far less of an issue and easier to build for, should the new pro gates be at all the races next year. Just that gate design will bring more consistancy into the start, which will favour the less experienced guys who currently, with the old gates seem to have far more trouble adapting when the gate angle and drop[ speed is different from race to race, compared to the more experienced guys who pick up the changes much quicker.
Andorra, yeah that all makes good sense, I had thought as much, it for sure brings in more skill to ride that 1st straight fast. The jumps were short, but still flowed well, which was the key to it still working good for all riders. Im bummed we arent going back there next year.
I agree things are tougher when you arent a full time racer, but it all comes down to time management, there is a ton of top level BMX racers who still race at the top of the highest level who work full time jobs. It makes it harder for sure, but if someone really wants to suceed, they will find a way to make it work and get the training done.
Strategy - I definately agree also with talking to more mid pack guys, its the only way to get everyones opinions, and make racing fairer for all. From my experince though a lot of them just want to dumb things down to make it easier for themselves, but there are also a lot of genuinely good thoughts out there.
Cedric is definately a racer who has acheived results at 4X through his skills and smarts, and they should be rearded, I find him a good clean racer also. He was pulling rad high low swoop passes in turn 1 in South Africa. Passes like that are cool, maybe 4x just needs some more crafty riders like him? One problem with a lot of BMX converts is that they are so used to playing follow the leader in BMX they don't think outside the square enough to get the most out of the track in 4X.
Practice - one of the cool things to come out out 4X this year for me, was that you had to use your practice time more efficiently, try all the options and not just always ride the fast qualifying lines, just like you mentioned. Evspecially things like the rock gardens were making me second and triple guess my tire/rim/tube combinations, it's bringing bike setup more into the equation, and it's rad!
I think a big problem also is that most people don't realize some of the finer points of 4X, what it takes to build a cool track that is good to race, and what its like to race them, and that it's still a very new discipline and it will no doubt get more figured out and improve.
I wont have any net access from tomorrow until early next week, but im sure ill have more to say when I can get back online. Hopefully theres more positive things to discuss then!
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Great read guys. Got to agree with Jared. The 1st straight issue. Nothing worse than getting on a plane going round the World to find a track so unfair with a short 1st straight. Its why i knocked it on the head at WC level alongside being old and washed up with no drifting game.
Still had fun though.
Phil im one of the guys that use to give you crap as i always felt you anti bmx and as for input when i was around i remember you getting input from the DH guys not the guys really racing 4x. Prokop told me you never asked him for feedback. But again that was awhile ago, sure things changed now though. At the end of the day flat straight, steep hill, drops what ever, the guys doing there home work will hole shot. Just like Jared did after realizing if he got gate/pull he would win...
Its not all about the snap either , you still got to back it up as did/does EC/Lopes/Jared /Prokop/ RR/Jos and so on.
Sure Dan Atherton will eventually do the same and be even bigger threat with the game he already got on track.
EC your the man, you need to be building WC tracks and put on Training camps, 4x needs you and your passion!! Legend!!
.See you at Wahoos ...
Still had fun though.
Phil im one of the guys that use to give you crap as i always felt you anti bmx and as for input when i was around i remember you getting input from the DH guys not the guys really racing 4x. Prokop told me you never asked him for feedback. But again that was awhile ago, sure things changed now though. At the end of the day flat straight, steep hill, drops what ever, the guys doing there home work will hole shot. Just like Jared did after realizing if he got gate/pull he would win...
Its not all about the snap either , you still got to back it up as did/does EC/Lopes/Jared /Prokop/ RR/Jos and so on.
Sure Dan Atherton will eventually do the same and be even bigger threat with the game he already got on track.
EC your the man, you need to be building WC tracks and put on Training camps, 4x needs you and your passion!! Legend!!
.See you at Wahoos ...
Has 'Buddy Love' put in his 2 cents yet?
Gobig - Not sure who you are, or when you raced WCs but I'm guessing it's a few years ago. 4X was getting a lot of stick for being too BMX. This was driving away mountain bikers as they couldn't compete in the gate. I totally respect Michael Prokop as a rider but he is undeniably from the BMX side of 4X. I've seen tracks designed by Micheal from a few years ago and to me they represent the direction not to go with 4X. I'm no sycophant and I'm not going to ask for his opinion just because he's World Champ, then totally ignore it. I'm sorry if he felt I didn't ask him specifically, but then again, he always knows where to find me, as do all the other racers who give me their opinion. I do not think 4X needed to become more BMX and I guess I felt his opinions would take it in that direction so I maybe I didn't go looking for him.
For the record, I'm not anti BMX and never have been!
For the record, I'm not anti BMX and never have been!
Phil totally understand you don't want it 2 much BMX, respect that. But any kind of gated start there going to have the advantage. Maybe take that away instead of thinking of ways stop BMX guys hole shotting if its that big of a deal? Use a rubber band start, shout Go.. Same guys will ge the jump i assure you..
Also remember alot of these BMX guys supporting the W C.. Why not work with them not against and come up with some thing good in the middle with both aspects. Again Jareds idea's of sections sounded cool.
Call Prokop a BMXer but he's won on all deals ..... He's humble and does not complain but as a friend i always asked him thoughts on stuff...
4x is cool be great to see it head more in the right direction.
Another deal. It dies pretty much in the winter.. Not good to keep motivation high.
2 races a weekend would be good also... Make it worth while.
Sorry for poor spelling.. I suck....
Also remember alot of these BMX guys supporting the W C.. Why not work with them not against and come up with some thing good in the middle with both aspects. Again Jareds idea's of sections sounded cool.
Call Prokop a BMXer but he's won on all deals ..... He's humble and does not complain but as a friend i always asked him thoughts on stuff...
4x is cool be great to see it head more in the right direction.
Another deal. It dies pretty much in the winter.. Not good to keep motivation high.
2 races a weekend would be good also... Make it worth while.
Sorry for poor spelling.. I suck....
Micheal Prokop is a total legend on a bike! Agreed! Nobody can corner on the flat with a hardtail better than he can. Fact. I think the tracks could get much rougher and he will still be top 5. And, yes he is a nice guy and super humble so maybe he wouldn't go throwing his opinions out there like others. Maybe I should have asked his opinion more often.
Dale (or whoever you are Gobig), as Michal Prokop's manager, not only once I was personally there when Phil and Michal discussed the track design. Fact! He, as most of riders around, has his own way how to build a track but most of ideas would not work for everybody. That's the problem with building tracks with most of top riders since they see it from just one angle. As I know Michal, if he believes in one solution and Phil wouldn't accept his idea frequently, he tend to think Phil has no interest to make changes... Be sure MP would build great track and at the same time he has no problem to deal with any kind of obstacle you'd put ahead of him. Just notice that Polis.13 in Prague, the only 4X track Michal ever helped to design we built back in 2006, before the World Cup tracks started getting closer to DH. Also the slope there is not suitable for building any real rough sections.
What are the opinions on diablos "indycross"/"giant slalom" one track, timed, slalom runs. I race it and like it, but i have never raced head to head or gated so it really ends up being just a time smooth dh course? opinions
if people cant get behind DS, then watching 1 person go at a time on a "slalom like course" is going to be even more boring.
I Like to think that every rider who takes the time to sign up and participate should have a chance to voice an opinion.
The hardest part is to weed out the opinions that are BS or self serving, Often times you have to listen knowing it's truly not anything valuable, but i think it is important to take the time to listen.
Go big! still love the name ha ha, I have a ton of respect for Prokop and what he can do on both BMX and MTB, but to be devil's advocate here I have heard him say that he doesn't like a course because it's to mountain bikish and not BMX'y enough....
Thats is some funny chit right there really, at a MTB race saying its to MTBish.
Keep in mind he still kicked everyone's tail. point is i am not sure that he would have the best interest of the sport in mind with suggestions?
Phil seems to have a solid position with UCI, and i am not sure if i would even want the travel time and headache associated with working with individual organizers and language barriers and bogus equipment? camps could be another thing though...is there big money for washed up World Cup pro's on the training camp circuit? ha ha.
Phil, I don't know if asking Opinions of certain riders is the best way?... I think if possible you should have some type of rider meeting , if it isn't already happening?, that lets the riders voice opinions, that is the time for them to speak up not on the side of the course with spectators around listening to how crappy they think the course is... it always starts with one rider and before you know it you have a group and a scene, not very positive really. The meeting way force's everyone to take an interest and there is no one thinking that you have favorites.
You can start the meeting with a statement that is something along the lines of,
"now is your time to voice opinions, not half way during the last practice 30 minutes before qualification, i welcome everyone to speak up, it doesn't mean that every person will get what they ask for based on realistic build times and changes, also if the meeting begins to turn into a bunch of whining or a call for a lynching i am just going to walk out, this meeting is to progress the sport"
The hardest part is to weed out the opinions that are BS or self serving, Often times you have to listen knowing it's truly not anything valuable, but i think it is important to take the time to listen.
Go big! still love the name ha ha, I have a ton of respect for Prokop and what he can do on both BMX and MTB, but to be devil's advocate here I have heard him say that he doesn't like a course because it's to mountain bikish and not BMX'y enough....
Thats is some funny chit right there really, at a MTB race saying its to MTBish.
Keep in mind he still kicked everyone's tail. point is i am not sure that he would have the best interest of the sport in mind with suggestions?
Phil seems to have a solid position with UCI, and i am not sure if i would even want the travel time and headache associated with working with individual organizers and language barriers and bogus equipment? camps could be another thing though...is there big money for washed up World Cup pro's on the training camp circuit? ha ha.
Phil, I don't know if asking Opinions of certain riders is the best way?... I think if possible you should have some type of rider meeting , if it isn't already happening?, that lets the riders voice opinions, that is the time for them to speak up not on the side of the course with spectators around listening to how crappy they think the course is... it always starts with one rider and before you know it you have a group and a scene, not very positive really. The meeting way force's everyone to take an interest and there is no one thinking that you have favorites.
You can start the meeting with a statement that is something along the lines of,
"now is your time to voice opinions, not half way during the last practice 30 minutes before qualification, i welcome everyone to speak up, it doesn't mean that every person will get what they ask for based on realistic build times and changes, also if the meeting begins to turn into a bunch of whining or a call for a lynching i am just going to walk out, this meeting is to progress the sport"
Zdenek,
I think you are the one responsible for getting the alliance together based off the e mails i have received?,
Hats off to you, in a situation where it would be easy to throw in the towel and give up on a format like some suggest, it is good to see you stand behind something you believe in.
Thanks Eric. That's really me, the man bad in English but trying to help. Anyway, I would love to welcome you aboard of the Fourcross Alliance. We need you! Would you agree with posting your comments at www.fourcross-alliance.com?
Fourcross track builder's Holy Bible is just being written here by Eric, Jared, Phil and some others. Thank you, guys!!!
Fourcross track builder's Holy Bible is just being written here by Eric, Jared, Phil and some others. Thank you, guys!!!
Nagaredama,
I think that Dual Slalom is good for what it is and isn't.
I think it is great for grass roots racing, it is cheaper then 4x, more skill set's seem to be more comfortable with it, all skill sets can have good close racing on the bare minimum of a course and it's a lot of fun.
But from a TV/Freecaster angle and even sponsorship angle... I think the format is not as exciting, i also think as has been stated....only the USA is reluctant to really look forward with 4x.
As i mentioned before the last Jeep series was switched to Dual Slalom format... this was primarily based on feedback gathered at Sea Otter and through e mails with industry and riders stating that it would be the best format...4x was also in the mix but Jeep went with Dual Slalom, even against the Opinion of one of it's main sponsors wanting head to head action.
It had a larger Purse then any World Cup, Bigger jumps then any Dual Slalom i have seen, National Television Coverage and the Industry never got behind it... all of the riders that i keep hearing about that would get involved and start gated racing just never happened.... it was awesome to have Greg and Steve show up, it added excitement for sure.
I hope we still have Dual Slaloms, they are a lot of fun for sure... but at the World Cup level i think it's time has passed?
I think that Dual Slalom is good for what it is and isn't.
I think it is great for grass roots racing, it is cheaper then 4x, more skill set's seem to be more comfortable with it, all skill sets can have good close racing on the bare minimum of a course and it's a lot of fun.
But from a TV/Freecaster angle and even sponsorship angle... I think the format is not as exciting, i also think as has been stated....only the USA is reluctant to really look forward with 4x.
As i mentioned before the last Jeep series was switched to Dual Slalom format... this was primarily based on feedback gathered at Sea Otter and through e mails with industry and riders stating that it would be the best format...4x was also in the mix but Jeep went with Dual Slalom, even against the Opinion of one of it's main sponsors wanting head to head action.
It had a larger Purse then any World Cup, Bigger jumps then any Dual Slalom i have seen, National Television Coverage and the Industry never got behind it... all of the riders that i keep hearing about that would get involved and start gated racing just never happened.... it was awesome to have Greg and Steve show up, it added excitement for sure.
I hope we still have Dual Slaloms, they are a lot of fun for sure... but at the World Cup level i think it's time has passed?
You are welcome to post anything i have put up here in the alliance section and I will help out as much as i can with the time restraints i have with being dedicated now to my family more then my racing career and being more of a brand ambassador for GT.
Also if you have any specific questions about things you can send them to me through e mail and i will respond... Sometimes it could take a bit from being on the road, but i will respond.