[Toshi]

Scooter riders seem to be about as qualified riders as most SUV owners are qualified drivers.

Some of the most unaware of their surroundings/what is going on around them people I have seen on the road.

Just don't become one of them.

i totally agree. that many states don't require motorcycle certification to ride 50cc-and-under scooters makes this problem even worse.

the root problem, however, is that fully half the population is below average. not much to do about that

 

[Changleen]

Scooter riders seem to be about as qualified riders as most SUV owners are qualified drivers.

Some of the most unaware of their surroundings/what is going on around them people I have seen on the road.

Just don't become one of them.

I think in a lot of places (the UK and NZ included) basically anyone can ride a 50cc scooter with close to no license required. This is part of the issue. In London I had a Italjet Formula 50cc which would do 70mph (wind assisted) and beat most regular cars off the lights easily. That is really too much to give to a n00b.

 

[Changleen]

at this level of cost it's tempting to look at the motorcycle range, but then one runs into the issues of small bikes not having storage as well as feature creep.

Also - When it is wet but not raining, scooters keep you dry. On a motorbike you still need waterproof feet and legs. Huge advantage. I find in reality there are very few actual 'rain' days in a commuting year.

 

[FreeRide-Junkie]

Come on, be fair. Just because VW can't keep both tail lights working doesn't mean they can't develop a complex diesel-electric powerplant.

Hahahahahaha!!!

I have had my left tail light go out on my GTI twice now ('03 with 40k miles) and had the trans go out once. (It has had problems since the replaced it so its going BACK to the shop.) I think I have gone through 3 sets of headlights too.

Anyone want a GTI?

(And yes, this is from page 2 or 3 or something.)

 

[Changleen]

Toshi - All your problems are solved:

http://www.italjetamerica.com/

Argh, but wait! The Dragster you are offered is a 250cc 4 stroke rather than the classic 180cc 2 stroke! Nooo! Actually you might like it more...

Also check out the Torpedo. This style of scoot is the most popular in Italy for commuting (big wheels, medium size 4 stroke engine). Could be a winner if you can stand the pure Euro looks.

Ah-ha! http://www.bindle.com/italjet/index.html They offer the Formula in it's 125 version. I loved my Formula (40km+ commute a day for 3 years, all year round, totally sweet) and would totally recommend it. Great brakes and tyres - One finger stoppies FTW!

Edit 2 - Bindle also have the proper 180cc Dragster! Nice!

 

[Changleen]

http://www.italjetdragster.com/

 

[Changleen]

Reliable everyday transport.

 

[eaterofdog]

sooo..... what of the two wheeled variety should i get? a new scooter? honda? scooters are appealing at the moment for their built in storage space.g[/img]

I have been thinking about getting one of these Kikker Hardknock's as a runabout. It takes a little work to get it legal, but looks cool and is cheep.

You can get a complete new motor for about $300 and install it in an hour. And hop up parts are available if you need that extra 10 mpg.

Lil Bobber

 

[BMXman]

there seems to be a dearth of models in between the 49 cc runabouts and the 450 cc pseudo-tourers. the only ones that seem interesting so far in terms of both specs and price are:

2008 Yamaha Vino 125, http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelspecs/328/0/specs.aspx

$2700. 124 cc 4 stroke. disc/drum, 229 lbs. 89 mpg per the EPA's LA-4 test.

we like ours quite a bit but you do need a motorcycle license to ride one...it can easily hit 50 on the flats with my fat arse on it...D

 

[N8 v2.0]

what's a new Vespa run these days?

 

[jimmydean]

I have been thinking about getting one of these Kikker Hardknock's as a runabout. It takes a little work to get it legal, but looks cool and is cheep.

You can get a complete new motor for about $300 and install it in an hour. And hop up parts are available if you need that extra 10 mpg.

Lil Bobber

I looked at those when MMike (I think it was MMike) posted that last year. They look like fun, but not for the price.

Again, I guess it's the cheap bastard in me. I would either go with an off brand for $1000, or pick up a Vespa in need of love. I have seen quite a few 125's on CL and there are a lot of Vespa supporters in Portland.

 

[BMXman]

what's a new Vespa run these days?

I can't say for sure but I do know it was a lot more than our Yamaha ($2000+)...my wife actually wanted a Vespa but we couldn't justify the price difference...D

 

[BMXman]

Vepsa pricing:

LX50- $4295
LX150- $5495
S model 150cc- $5295
GTV 250cc- $8995
GTS 250c- $7495
Gran Turismo 200cc- $6895

way to much....D

 

[jimmydean]

Vepsa pricing:

LX50- $4295
LX150- $5495
S model 150cc- $5295
GTV 250cc- $8995
GTS 250c- $7495
Gran Turismo 200cc- $6895

way to much....D

Wow, that's insane! You can get good used ones for $1500 to $2500.
http://www.scooterstation.com is a great parts source, too. My guess is Seattle has a Vespa/Lambretta following.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Vepsa pricing:

LX50- $4295
LX150- $5495
S model 150cc- $5295
GTV 250cc- $8995
GTS 250c- $7495
Gran Turismo 200cc- $6895

way to much....D

for that kind of $'s I'd look at vintage..

http://www.classic-vespas.com/

 

[Toshi]

Toshi - All your problems are solved:

http://www.italjetamerica.com/

Argh, but wait! The Dragster you are offered is a 250cc 4 stroke rather than the classic 180cc 2 stroke! Nooo! Actually you might like it more...

Also check out the Torpedo. This style of scoot is the most popular in Italy for commuting (big wheels, medium size 4 stroke engine). Could be a winner if you can stand the pure Euro looks.

Ah-ha! http://www.bindle.com/italjet/index.html They offer the Formula in it's 125 version. I loved my Formula (40km+ commute a day for 3 years, all year round, totally sweet) and would totally recommend it. Great brakes and tyres - One finger stoppies FTW!

Edit 2 - Bindle also have the proper 180cc Dragster! Nice!

the italjet dragster is too expensive. $3k for the 50cc 4 stroke, $5800 (!) for the 250cc. that bindle/importer site looks super sketchy. i don't want a 2-stroke, they don't have current models, and their dealer list is broken.

the legit Italjet Torpedo 150 looks pretty good, tho. 150cc 4-stroke, 297 lbs., $3k. i'd need a pretty compelling reason to choose it over a honda or yamaha, however, and i don't see one on paper.

 

[Toshi]

we like ours quite a bit but you do need a motorcycle license to ride one...it can easily hit 50 on the flats with my fat arse on it...D

D, do you actually have that model, the Yamaha Vino 125? you can hit 50 as in mph? that'd certainly be enough for me to commute on back roads. what sort of mpg do you get? i already have a motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license so that's not an issue.

 

[jimmydean]

I would go for the Vino over the Honda. The Spree was gutless and is only good for beach cruising as a tourist. If it does 50mph, that sounds like a good option.

I think the Vino gets around 85mpg.

 

[Toshi]

I would go for the Vino over the Honda. The Spree was gutless and is only good for beach cruising as a tourist. If it does 50mph, that sounds like a good option.

I think the Vino gets around 85mpg.

comparing a spree to an elite 80 is kind of unfair... 50 vs. 80 cc for one.

here's a spree for comparison:

(i have to admit i like how honda hasn't messed with the elite's design AT ALL since the 80s, sort of their own sharp edged retro-homage a la vespa without the tight pants and "scene" connotation. the one below is from 1980.)

 

[jimmydean]

comparing a spree to an elite 80 is kind of unfair... 50 vs. 80 cc for one.

here's a spree for comparison:

(i have to admit i like how honda hasn't messed with the elite's design AT ALL since the 80s, sort of their own sharp edged retro-homage a la vespa without the tight pants and "scene" connotation. the one below is from 1980.)

Sorry, I meant the Elite. The difference from 50cc to 80cc wouldn't be enough for what you want, I think. The 80cc will not do more than about 45mph unless you are 110lbs with no baggage.

If the Vino can hit 50mph (being a 125cc), then thats a solid bet. I'm too huge for anything short of a 150cc

 

[Toshi]

ok, the 80 is out of the picture unless a test ride shows it to be an unexpected powerhouse. hmm.

i did just find out that the Vino 125 is built in Yamaha's taiwan factory, so its perceived advantage is diminished. am now considering Kymco, who are the largest Taiwanese scooter make at 480k units yearly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kymco

they have full-line dealers local to me (within 20 miles) and their lineup is both more full in the midrange and offers more at each given pricepoint.

they have so many models, in fact, that i'm going to pull together a comparison table of non-exorbitantly-priced, scooters that are available in the USA and displace 51 to 349cc: Honda, Yamaha, Kymco.

 

[jimmydean]

they have so many models, in fact, that i'm going to pull together a comparison table of scooters 51 to 349cc: Honda, Yamaha, Kymco.

That would be an interesting comparison. I think Kymco, Roketa, Eton, and maybe even Tank are all basically the same as far as the basic motor/trans. I know the quads are all about the same, at least they look, feel, and ride the same.

<edit> The Kymco People 150 looks like a solid option.

 

[Toshi]

ok, spreadsheet is up. Gmail users can access it directly (and sort by all columns, click on the URLs, etc.) here: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=peP2MMXqCxOPsUvBnHV9hRQ

otherwise here's a screenshot of it, sorted by price:

scooter riders, what's most important? Changleen gave a list of things he likes in a scooter above, but at a given price point it's not going to be possible to get everything.

water vs. air cooling?
wheel size?
displacement?
rear disc brake?

and now a few shots of the Kymco lineup:

People S 125

Bet & Win 150 (what a name)

People 250

 

[Changleen]

The Bet and Win's functional bits and layout looks suspiciously like my Suzuki... Hmmm...

I think a watercooled engine is important, it will almost certainly be more powerful for given ccs. And good tyres and breaks. There are discs and then there are discs.

I doubt any of the Kymco models actually ship with 'good' tyres so check if quality rubber is available in the relevant size.

Other than that I'd hit a few review sites.

 

[Changleen]

Check out power ratings for the engines. (Most will be in KW rather than HP). Not all things are equal when it comes to scoot engines.

Oh and the Italian/Euro models will have a plethora of upgrade components available - Better carbs, exhausts, cylider heads, rollers etc so you can tune the thing way better, and replace any broken bits with better stuff:

http://www.speed-sports.com/motorscooters/HiPerformance.html

NOS kit anyone?

 

[BMXman]

D, do you actually have that model, the Yamaha Vino 125? you can hit 50 as in mph? that'd certainly be enough for me to commute on back roads. what sort of mpg do you get? i already have a motorcycle endorsement on my driver's license so that's not an issue.

We have the 125 and yes it can hit 50mph...we get about 80-85 mpg...it's been pretty much maintainence free and my wife dropped it twice...so far I have no complaints out of it...good scooter for a great price. Ours is red and the paint still looks showroom. Not that it really matters but I think the quality is there. We looked at the Kymco line but after talking to a few people...parts are not cheap and kind of hard to find compared to the the Yamaha...IMO the only advantage the Kymco has is the larger wheels for potholes ans such...D

 

[Changleen]

See that's the difference between an air cooled and a liquid cooled engine of the same size - about an extra 15mph top speed and associated extra power.

One thing I forgot - Narrow scooters are better than wide scooters. Wing mirrors hurt your knuckles.

 

[Toshi]

We have the 125 and yes it can hit 50mph...we get about 80-85 mpg...it's been pretty much maintainence free and my wife dropped it twice...so far I have no complaints out of it...good scooter for a great price. Ours is red and the paint still looks showroom. Not that it really matters but I think the quality is there. We looked at the Kymco line but after talking to a few people...parts are not cheap and kind of hard to find compared to the the Yamaha...IMO the only advantage the Kymco has is the larger wheels for potholes ans such...D

maybe things will change when i go test riding, but it's hard to argue against the Kymco Agility 125 on paper.

$2000 vs. $2700 for the (also taiwan-built) yamaha.
2 year warranty for kymco vs. 1 year for yamaha... kind of a big deal, imol.
normal dash vs. stripped down speedo + gas gauge way down below on the yamaha.

 

[Toshi]

See that's the difference between an air cooled and a liquid cooled engine of the same size - about an extra 15mph top speed and associated extra power.

One thing I forgot - Narrow scooters are better than wide scooters. Wing mirrors hurt your knuckles.

hmm, what are "wing mirrors"? which ones above are narrow? also, i agree that liquid cooled would be better, but $2k USD with a 2 yr warranty is hard to match.

 

[jimmydean]

hmm, what are "wing mirrors"? which ones above are narrow? also, i agree that liquid cooled would be better, but $2k USD with a 2 yr warranty is hard to match.

Wing mirrors on an SUV while lane splinting will hurt your knuckles if your bars are wide.

 

[Toshi]

i'm fickle, and have decided a scooter isn't the vehicle for me after all. reasons:

1) i let my motorcycle endorsement lapse when i switched over to an oregon license from my prior WA fare. washington state's department of licensing, like the gimp, can lick my freshly shorn yambag (it's quite breathtaking, really): i spent an hour in there only to by stymied by bureaucrats.

the issue in particular was whether my UW transcript is acceptable. it doesn't have my mailing address. can someone point out to me where this requirement is stated here?

2. Proof of Washington State residence

When you apply for your first Washington State driver license, instruction permit, or ID card, you must prove you have a Washington State residential address. The street address you give us will appear on your driver license or instruction permit.

[...]

To prove you live in Washington State:

[...]
- you can show us 2 documents from this list[:]
[...]
Medical record paid by insurance or a medical bill [had this one]
[...]
Transcript or report card for the current school year from an educational institution in Washington State [had this one]
[...]

whether correctly or incorrectly, i was denied the chance to pay WA for a new license, and in turn to pay them more to take the written motorcycle test, get a temporary motorcycle permit, and then proceed to the whole finding a scoot phase. (if i stick with my OR license then i'd have to make two trips to portland, one to get the permit, and another grueling trip with the scoot to take the riding test. my ridercourse was in washington and was taken too long ago to let me out of the testing this time.)

aggghaghaghgh. but that's not all:

2) i had to drive to des moines today to make a home visit as part of my medical duties. thankfully this town is not of the IA variety but is one 25 miles away. nevertheless, assuming i'll have to make similar trips i decided i want something that's freeway capable, so a relaxed 65 mph. that means a 250+cc scooter or a legit motorcycle, and i'm not sure i'd be comfortable on either on the freeway. i drove 60 mph on the cruise control in the right lane on the way back and EVERYONE was passing me. mix in rain and you have a recipe for me to not be on two wheels, costs be damned.

3) parking in seattle for two wheelers is pretty much abysmal. people have been known to move other peoples' scooters into alleys in order to steal street parking spots, and downtown basically has no motorcycle parking. if i'd have to take the bus into downtown for the last mile much of the utility is lost.

 

[Toshi]

content for this thread not related to my personal commute:

free this week on the iTunes Music and Video Store:

[video] Big Ideas for a Small Planet - Power

"An original 13-part documentary series highlighting forward-thinking designers, products and processes that are on the leading edge of a new green world. Each episode revolves around a particular green issue, with titles such as Fuel, Build, Cities, Drive, Wear, and Eat, it spotlights a specific innovator or innovation that has the potential to transform our everyday lives on these topics. The individuals profiled range from scientists to fashion and product designers, entrepreneurs to first-time inventors. The original series also features a cast of recurring expert commentators, including activists, scientists, writers, and environmental personalities who provide the big-picture context to each week's stories." -- iTunes Store

Episode Summary
Addressing some of the most important issues facing humanity, this original documentary series from Sundance Channel focuses on environmental topics with features on forward-thinking designers, green products and alternative ideas that may transform our everyday lives. This episode explores the booming field of alternative energy as it introduces several individuals who are working to develop clean, renewable energy from resources like the sun, wind and even cow manure.

 

[Toshi]

i'm fickle, and have decided a scooter isn't the vehicle for me after all.

so this brings me back to square one, with a new set of specs to optimize:

in your mind, what's the 4-wheeled vehicle that offers the best combination of low price, high fuel economy, comparatively low emissions (post-catalyst/fuel-injection era, please), and reasonable safety? this is admittedly a similar question to stosh's commuter cars thread, but without the fixation on car payments, buicks, or new cars, and with higher signal to noise hopefully.

irate2:

 

[jimmydean]

 

[Toshi]

oh, i agree, and would gladly snatch up a '89-91 civic hatchback of any flavor, '89-95 even. double wishbones! however, what are my chances of landing one that's not super beat and actually has decent compression in all four cylinders? i'm wary.

i'm thinking that something that _doesn't_ have any appeal with the misguided "tuner" crowd would be a safer bet. like that tercel, which had to be the last car out there that was sold with a 4-speed manual.

 

[jimmydean]

oh, i agree, and would gladly snatch up a '89-91 civic hatchback of any flavor, '89-95 even. double wishbones! however, what are my chances of landing one that's not super beat and actually has decent compression in all four cylinders? i'm wary.

i'm thinking that something that _doesn't_ have any appeal with the misguided "tuner" crowd would be a safer bet. like that tercel, which had to be the last car out there that was sold with a 4-speed manual.

A guy I work with just bought an 89 Civic hatch from the original owner unmolested off CL for $1500. I know they can be hard to find, but they are out there.

There is actually an all original red Civic hatch at a dealer a few blocks away. I will stop and look tomorrow to get the details for kicks.

I have been thinking about getting one and putting a rack on instead of a 2wd Mazda/Nissan/Toyota truck. Mainly because of the gas mileage, but I so need a truck bed for the motorcyles.

 

[BMXman]

I think it's perfect for what you have in mind Toshi...see if you can find the HF model...they typically were snubbed by the "tuner" crowd...D

 

[Toshi]

news: carbon fiber and cheap, small city cars may not be mutually exclusive...

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/27/caparo-building-two-new-cars-beyond-the-t1/

Caparo is known for their T1, basically a street legal F1 car (and that's hardly hyperbole). however, they're also really good at manipulating carbon fiber, and were consultants with Tata on their Nano microcar. now the scuttlebutt is that Caparo is developing a "small, urban runabout":

[...] The other model will make use of innovative materials and packaging, and is likely aimed at smart's fortwo and other small, urban runabouts. The major push by Caparo is to make composite body panels less expensive in an effort to reduce weight and increase efficiency. "The carbon fiber route is not just for expensive cars," Paul maintains, "We are thinking of the Fiat Punto class."

 

[Toshi]

I think it's perfect for what you have in mind Toshi...see if you can find the HF model...they typically were snubbed by the "tuner" crowd...D

i did a little craigslist searching today and there are sure a lot of horribly riced out and/or swapped CRXs. no, i've already been down that route and have seen the light. no, i don't think having a fender in a random color is a desirable feature. no, having a salvage title is not a bonus.



i think it will be MUCH easier to find a Tercel. that's my target for now. i have somewhat of a soft spot for them, as the girl had an early 90s one with a 4 speed manual before trading up to the 2001 corolla (5-speed! woohoo) so that her little brother could bask in the tercel's no-a/c goodness. besides, S.S. here on the monkey likes 'em, i hear, so they get the spendthrift award.

canadian market only? i like the angular 80s-style 3 door hatch look...

as for civics i'd pick up something like this locally, but only for blue book private party value. $4k is insane and i'm not buying out of region again. not worth it given that the vehicle itself will be so cheap in comparison to gas/plane tix. the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-HONDA-CIVIC-DX-5-SPEED-1-TEXAS-OWNER-106K-ACTUAL_W0QQitemZ320233085711QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320233085711

a little bit ugly, a little bit staid, but 5 speed, honda, 1 owner:

 

[jimmydean]

http://boise.craigslist.org/car/622324487.html <- '90 CRX HF $2000