Second that, the 2010 Glory looks good and the maestro system works nearly as good or even better than the DW link
same here,
Turner is it. There will not be another DW DH bike for 09
Ah, now this gets interesting. Do the DW fanboys of RM go for the prettier looking, yet functionally very similar Giant, and deal with the fact that their stabbing their god in the back just a little due to the rumoured patent infringements etc. Alternatively, do they go with the Turner and have a bike that, whilst a little further removed from the Sunday, allows them to cosy up a little better with DW and not hand in their fan club membership card? :biggrin:
Jeff Lebowski, the other Lebowski, the millionaire!
Ah, now this gets interesting. Do the DW fanboys of RM go for the prettier looking, yet functionally very similar Giant, and deal with the fact that their stabbing their god in the back just a little due to the rumoured patent infringements etc. Alternatively, do they go with the Turner and have a bike that, whilst a little further removed from the Sunday, allows them to cosy up a little better with DW and not hand in their fan club membership card? :biggrin:
On a more serious note, I do see where you're coming from. All other things being equal, why would you go for the less aesthetically pleasing bike? The thing is, all things are NOT equal. The bikes are sure to ride slightly differently, but more importantly, Turner's customer support absolutely rocks. When you buy a bike, you're not simply buying a bunch of tubing and bearings, and that's where Turner will always win out.
Now my disclaimer. I'm a Turner fanboy. Do I jump on board this bandwagon and start chugging the kool-aid. I'm not sure I want to be associated with the latest movement of RM fanboys. [sigh] where do one's allegiances lie?
_dw said:Everyone who has spent time on the interwebs and cycling forums knows that the Turner homers are some of the most passionate and opinionated riders to ever ride and scrutinize a bicycle. As someone who thrives on riding and scrutinizing bicycles, I am thrilled to join your family.
Thanks to all of you who have sent kind words of support, encouragement, and excitement about the dw-link / Turner partnership. I’m as excited as you are. Many of you who know me, either in person or through years of talking on forums, know that Turner has been one of the brands that I’ve really looked up to since I first got into mountain bikes in the late ‘90s. I’ve always been a big fan of the Turner hallmarks of quality, straightforward design, and customer service. I think that this new dw-linked line really will help keep that tradition going. As a rider, I can say that the Turner dw-links are each as individually unique as the dw-link designs used by Ibis and Pivot. I urge you to test the bikes, whatever opinion you hold from a picture or prior experience will be backed up with real, live experience. I am looking forward to hearing all of the homer feedback. To that end, I’ll be available at the Turner, IBIS, and Pivot booths at Interbike and Dirt Demo for Q&A, general grilling, and hopefully a lot more talk about great rides than the finer points of rear suspension..
I’ve briefly scanned the hundreds and hundreds of posts / questions that have popped up since yesterday on the multitude of boards. I will try to answer some of the more commonly occurring questions that I saw.
- Can you switch links back and forth between different dw-link Turner models?
A: Nope, dw-link is a lot more reliant on specific pivot location and kinematic layout than FSR or TNT. The ability to tune and characterize dw-link’s comparatively complex anti-squat and wheel rate curves comes through closely calibrated suspension geometry. Even very small changes, less than 2mm, can have major and unplanned effects on performance.
- Will the Turner dw-links ride like other dw-link bikes that I have ridden?
A: The development of a new dw-link bike is a collaborative affair. For the Turner bikes, the process starts with frame geometry developed by DT himself. This is the first part that gives each bike a unique Turner personality. All dw-link bikes ever made share one common factor. I was responsible for the development of the suspension kinematics for each of these bikes. Whether it’s an Iron Horse, Ibis, Pivot, Turner, or IF, the how’s and why’s of the dw-link suspension begin and end here. So from one standpoint, the bikes are going to ride similarly in some respects, but for the most part they are all very different.
The heart of the dw-link system is its position sensitive anti-squat, and this is shared by all dw-link platforms. There is a very wide range of variability in wheel rate possible within the dw-link system, and I use this to help create each unique suspension bike’s personality. I work hand in hand with each manufacturer to help them realize their idea of what the ultimate suspension bike feels like on the trail. Based on the feedback that I gathered from talking with and riding with Dave Turner and his trusted advisors, I developed wheel rates and ultimately leverage rates to give us the “feel” that we were looking for.
The realization of these ideas on “feel” are what makes each bike special. For example, an Ibis Mojo was engineered to have a coil-like feel using a lightweight air shock, a Pivot Mach 4 was made to have a racy XC feel with very neutral braking, and a Turner 5-Spot was designed to eat small bumps and still take the big hit.
- I think that the bikes look sweet, ugly, like IH bikes, like a Turner, etc…
A: I think that this is another area that really lets a company like Turner showcase their abilities. If you put these bikes in a lineup of 100 frames, I could pick them out as Turners instantly. Round downtubes, CNC pivot blocks, bushing pivots, square chainstays and seatstays? I can think of only one manufacturer that combines these elements. The bikes are uniquely Turner, and in a world of swoops and forming I think that they are refreshing.
Someone commented that this is what the dw-link Iron Horse line would have looked like moving forward. To all of the you who commented really like the look of the Iron Horse dw-link bikes, thanks for the nice complement, these were my babies, and I developed every inch of them from the ground up. They were my first (and for now I am content to say last) attempt at styling a whole line. For sure there are things that I would have liked to do differently, but the situation at IH did not allow that. Either way, I am proud of those bikes and it was a great experience for me. If I had decided to allow IH to continue building dw-link bikes, they would have been much different looking than the Turner bikes. Aside from the general dw-link layout the similarities would have ended there.
- Is the DHR a new Sunday etc…
Back in 2000 and 2001, when I really was heavily into developing dw-link, I spent more time than I should have posting on the MTBR forums about the finer points of suspension design. During that time, the number one downhill bike that I recommended to riders was the DHR. I knew when I designed the Sunday that this was the benchmark. Since then it seems like the Sunday has become the new downhill benchmark, but I still thought that I could improve upon it based on my experience on the World Cup circuit and feedback from many talented riders. Think of the new DHR as an evolution of the ideas that made both the DHR and Sunday successful.
The things that I specifically put attention into with the new DHR include:
- a pretty nifty dual progressive leverage rate curve that is supple in the early travel, with the end travel ramp that the Sunday lacked.
- modified spring rates, so that a 155 lb rider will now use a 350lb spring rather than a 300lb spring. This will give lighter riders more tuning options.
- lighter weight layout. The Sunday was impressively light, but this bike’s frame takes it to a new level in my opinion. Alone it weighs in the 7’s, and in the low 8’s with shock. Its light and strong at the same time.
OK, I need to do some work here!
Cheers all!
Dave
...continue to ride their Sundays as they still perform quite well? At least that's my plan.
Why does your decision have to be based around what others are doing? If you like the brand, customer service, and culture of being part of the Turner owner's club, stay your course.Now my disclaimer. I'm a Turner fanboy. Do I jump on board this bandwagon and start chugging the kool-aid. I'm not sure I want to be associated with the latest movement of RM fanboys. [sigh] where do one's allegiances lie?
, but why does buying a product that works, and works great, turn one into a fanboy? I love my Sunday for many reasons, and hate some aspects of it as well (the love outweighs the hate or I would have sold it already) but nowhere on that love list is "because Dave designed it" or "because Hill rides one". Sounds like you are going to be, at the very least, test riding the new Turner out...fan boy! 
It was a joke, would expect a man of your username to have figured that one out.
And less likely to rape his home state of it's natural resources for personal gain and profit.
Oh brutal!!!!
So we know for sure that Ibis won't make a DH bike? I figured with Lopes on them they'd have to.
Lopes is gonna start racing RH?
Lopes used to race DH. He had a segment in a vid a couple years ago in which he was only aboard a DHi. He's a gravity rider and I bet there's a DH bike in his garage.Lopes is gonna start racing RH?
i think it was the jump race down A-line, so not necessarily a "real" dh course.
it was done intentionally... it's to keep the racers who want to be fast apart from the kids who just want to look good.
I went fishing to see if Mojo had anything mtx/ ds worthy in store for the future, and this is the response I received from Scot at Ibis (quite promptly, too):
I'm allergic to penicillin.
And I'm allergic to you
Just an example Darwinism at work
Just an example Darwinism at work
Well, according to Tony Ellsworth they are
So if my 3 Turners are pre-DW link, does that mean they're garbage?
hmmmm... someone has been stealing my laptop and not signing me out of my own computer
Nicely said.