That's only for the pivot on the front triangle.
For the rear one you just need to persist with the hammer, did mine this week and put it back together with the loctite 609 and O-rings as suggested to remove the play, working a treat so far.
The Official Iron Horse Sunday / DW-Link Tech. & Tuning Section
- Thread starter S.K.C.
- Start date
For the rear one you just need to persist with the hammer, did mine this week and put it back together with the loctite 609 and O-rings as suggested to remove the play, working a treat so far.
that's all he asked about..duh
Trying a bit of heat around the bearings might help, bit basically you're going to need a BFH*
*Big F*cking Hammer
*Big F*cking Hammer
I suggest you remove one bolt, find a socket that fits just inside of the inner bearing race, flush with the axle, then tap it with a hammer towards the stuck bolt side. Mine fought me excessively even after I had the axle out. Ended up trashing the bolt and having to use a blow torch to free it. But yeah, get solid purchase on that axle and tap-tap-aroo.
yep cheers guys, finally got it out, unfortunately though the bearing is still seized onto the axle type thing and also the m6 bolt is absolutely stuck and now rounded 
thinking it might be time to get onto Pearce Cycles and just get a new one (unless some one has one they could sell me for less
)
any other ideas??
thinking it might be time to get onto Pearce Cycles and just get a new one (unless some one has one they could sell me for less
)any other ideas??
Lads where is my understanding going wrong, are you removing bolt (6) and cap (7) then hitting the bearing (3) and axle (21) through the frame? Wouldn't the bearing (3) be stopped by the frame?
Yes. You remove 6 and 7 and tap 21, not 3. 21 slides out of the other bearing (or takes it with it), then you tap the bearing back from the other side. The bearings are stopped by the frame, so you can't push it out, you have to remove the axle then remove the bearing in the opposite direction.
The bearing will probably come off pretty easily if you find the right sized sockets. I'd put it in a vice with the jaws supporting the inner race, then just tap the axle down and out of it.yep cheers guys, finally got it out, unfortunately though the bearing is still seized onto the axle type thing and also the m6 bolt is absolutely stuck and now rounded
thinking it might be time to get onto Pearce Cycles and just get a new one (unless some one has one they could sell me for less
any other ideas??
BUT
first you'll have to get the cap and bolt off. For that, I suggest that you blowtorch the F out of it. If you torch the bearing (there's no saving it now) it'll probably drop off once you burn out the rust or loctite on it. Then, I torched the bejesus out of the bolt itself, which eventually finally gave up. I tried ez-outs, torx, all manner of allens, and nothing worked until it got hot enough. Theoretically, the aluminum will expand faster, but I think it's typically the corrosion that needs to get out first. As much as it hurts, you can use vice grips on the inner, narrow part of the axle without damaging and bearing surfaces. That plus heat plus a torx head finally got the thing to release.
Next time, use anti-seize compound instead of loctite, and just keep an eye on the bolts every few rides. Mine never backed out and they were still hard to remove.
Right my brain has caught on at last.
I've often had the cap off after reading previous explanations, and never realised I'm looking at the shaft (21) within the bearing (3) 'flush' with the outside of the bearing/frame on each side. Couldn't think how it was supporting itself otherwise. This is the same as the rocker link (from memory)..
Duh!
I've often had the cap off after reading previous explanations, and never realised I'm looking at the shaft (21) within the bearing (3) 'flush' with the outside of the bearing/frame on each side. Couldn't think how it was supporting itself otherwise. This is the same as the rocker link (from memory)..
Duh!
it didn't on mine, but I wouldn't advice placing the torch directly on the aluminum cap, just the bolt and the axle. I didn't notice any discoloration, just one corner where I tried to use pliers to hold it (idiot).
Just swapped a spring on my vivid r2c for my 08 sunday wc. After the swap, I just noticed the lower outboard gigantic hex bolts where the lower pinch bolt passes through, is now spinning when compressing the suspension. This can't be correct, or is it? Perhaps I just never noticed it. Any ideas for the noob?
Is this the play that everyone talks about and needs loctite or something completely different?
Is this the play that everyone talks about and needs loctite or something completely different?
You're alright. The large hex is screwed into the lower link and holds the inner race of the bearing tight against it. It will move with the link as the suspension cycles.
AL
Hello everybody,
I'm having some really strange issues with my Sunday, so I tought this is a good place to search for enlightment.
Few months ago I've bought myself a Sunday size M, (I'm 6.10 tall), and I am not able to ride this bike.
Now, I'm not your averrage newbie, considering I have over 18 years experience with mountainbikes. Most part of it is racing 4x, DH, DirtJumping etc. So, I owned a quite large number of bikes along the years, and did see quite a lot.
Usually I adapt very quickly to any kind of bike, and never developed any problems. If I'll go ride with my mates, and we swap bikes, I feel confortable on any bike, just not on my Sunday. Session, Carbon V10, Demo, Glory, Supreme V2, you name it, no problems what so ever. Then I swith back to the Sunday, and I ride like a sissy. The above mentionned differ from M to L sizing. I do feel difference, but riding doesn't differ all that much.
I've did all kinds of changes, bars widths, heights, stem lenghts, pushed the HA to 63, but they are all to no improvement.
Unfortunately I can't point the finger to what the problem is with, and though, the Sunday is my all time favourite rig. Still, riding it, is very very unconfortable, and I feel very unstable on it. It is the only bike I ever ridden, that somehow "doesn't listen to me", and riding it is a total nightmare.
The only thing I might add in here, is that I'm the oldschool mtb positionned rider. I keep my weight on the back, and use my butt and legs a lot on the bike. So I ain't Sam Hill moto style, at all. Though, I never believed in "bike for your style" thing.
Anybody else had this issue?
I really hope there is somebody here who can help, if not, saddly I'll have to file this as unexplainable, and just sell it as is. I would deffinetly regret it.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,
Mihai
I'm having some really strange issues with my Sunday, so I tought this is a good place to search for enlightment.
Few months ago I've bought myself a Sunday size M, (I'm 6.10 tall), and I am not able to ride this bike.
Now, I'm not your averrage newbie, considering I have over 18 years experience with mountainbikes. Most part of it is racing 4x, DH, DirtJumping etc. So, I owned a quite large number of bikes along the years, and did see quite a lot.
Usually I adapt very quickly to any kind of bike, and never developed any problems. If I'll go ride with my mates, and we swap bikes, I feel confortable on any bike, just not on my Sunday. Session, Carbon V10, Demo, Glory, Supreme V2, you name it, no problems what so ever. Then I swith back to the Sunday, and I ride like a sissy. The above mentionned differ from M to L sizing. I do feel difference, but riding doesn't differ all that much.
I've did all kinds of changes, bars widths, heights, stem lenghts, pushed the HA to 63, but they are all to no improvement.
Unfortunately I can't point the finger to what the problem is with, and though, the Sunday is my all time favourite rig. Still, riding it, is very very unconfortable, and I feel very unstable on it. It is the only bike I ever ridden, that somehow "doesn't listen to me", and riding it is a total nightmare.
The only thing I might add in here, is that I'm the oldschool mtb positionned rider. I keep my weight on the back, and use my butt and legs a lot on the bike. So I ain't Sam Hill moto style, at all. Though, I never believed in "bike for your style" thing.
Anybody else had this issue?
I really hope there is somebody here who can help, if not, saddly I'll have to file this as unexplainable, and just sell it as is. I would deffinetly regret it.
Thank you in advance,
Regards,
Mihai
A medium Sunday is still a fairly small bike, I'd say you really should be on a large
What shock are you running? I had a DHX on mine, and not matter how I tried to tune it, it never "listened to me". Other people swear up and down that the Sunday is the best bike ever, but it just didn't work for me. I have to blame the shock in this case.
Are you 6'10"? If so, you should be on a large. If you're over 5'11", you should be on a large. I am 5'11" and was on a medium, and it was borderline to small. I personally don't feel that the sunday is as small as Scottishmark says, as mine fit me quite well, but there's no way, if you're that tall, that you should be on a medium.
Also, can you confirm that everything on your bike is as it should be? It looks WICKED slack, almost to the point that something is wrong with it, like a flipped linkage or too long shock. Maybe it's just my eyes, but it seems weird. Is your fork down as far as it can go? To my understanding, most people run the fronts of their sundays slammed so that the bike feels normal with the low BB height. Yours looks pretty tall, and the top tube looks more slanted than normal.
edit:
it looks like there's some space between the lower crown and headtube. I suggest getting rid of that, either by using an integrated reducer, or removing whatever the problem is. Then you'll have a better starting point for adjusting and determining fit.
Are you 6'10"? If so, you should be on a large. If you're over 5'11", you should be on a large. I am 5'11" and was on a medium, and it was borderline to small. I personally don't feel that the sunday is as small as Scottishmark says, as mine fit me quite well, but there's no way, if you're that tall, that you should be on a medium.
Also, can you confirm that everything on your bike is as it should be? It looks WICKED slack, almost to the point that something is wrong with it, like a flipped linkage or too long shock. Maybe it's just my eyes, but it seems weird. Is your fork down as far as it can go? To my understanding, most people run the fronts of their sundays slammed so that the bike feels normal with the low BB height. Yours looks pretty tall, and the top tube looks more slanted than normal.
edit:
it looks like there's some space between the lower crown and headtube. I suggest getting rid of that, either by using an integrated reducer, or removing whatever the problem is. Then you'll have a better starting point for adjusting and determining fit.
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Is there any company that makes a linkage kit (the whole thing, not just lower link) for the Sunday? I'm sure there isn't but it doesn't hurt to ask.. I saw that BOS had made one for a while, but I don't know if they still do or not, I'd have to send them an email. Or does anyone have an extra F7 linkage just laying around/be able to make one? lol
Thanks for chiming in Allen, can anyone else confirm that it IS supposed to spin as I've had 2 people chime in saying theirs spin as well. More than likely it's okay.
Mine spun before and after I rebuilt my bike. iirc, it has to spin as the lower shock pin goes through it. If it didn't, it would wear metal on metal. It must press up against the inner race.
Dr Souce, Pearce cycles in the UK makes a host of replacement bits for the Sunday, so does BETD.
http://www.mountainbikecomponents.co.uk/items.asp?CategoryID=387&Name=IRON+HORSE+Linkages+and+spares
http://www.pearcecycles.co.uk/brand/?brand_id=1
Yeah, I've been checking with both of those websites periodically to see if there were any updates on parts, but nothing on what I'm looking for. I really want to upgrade to the F7 shock plates, I already have the '07+ bottom link with the updated retainers. I just need the top shock plates to finish it off!
I agree with you - for the sunday it is crucial that the rear shock is on-point, otherwise the bike feels "meh". If you run a softish spring with lots of pressure in the bottom out canister (i run ~260psi in my xfusion vector's piggyback canister) and low compression damping it really comes to life. Also im 5'10" and my medium sunday feels a little small so i use a setback seatpost. I also have a large sunday and that feels bigger but fits well with the 0 offset seatpost and 40mm stem
you and me both.. i need 2 sets of those 07+ upper plates if you figure out who sells them lmk!
first of all, you should be on a large frame. I recently traded a large for a medium, so see if someone will swap you front triangles. Also I see your photo has the 0 offset seatpost and a short stem. If you are 6'10" youre gonna need a setback seatpost and maybe 55mm or 60mm stem on a large.
ps: i had a friend named "me-high" also
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WTF? since when does anyone sit on their saddle while riding a DH bike anywhere that handling matters? The saddle is only there to use for control with your inner thigh..
Pupetxls -
Do you mean 6'10" or 6'1"?
and do you know for definite your Sunday's a Med and not a small? (looks resprayed, are you the original owner?)
I'm trying to get someone who knows CNC to see if he can machine some for me, if/when I get a price I'll let you know, maybe we can do a group buy or something
Someone with an rc4 know some settings that work best for the sunday?
I´m 72 kg with gear on and I feel that I bottom out in places that I shouldnt. These are my settings:
300 spring
140 psi
b.o. closed to max.
lsc 17 clicks out
hsc 5 clicks out
rebound 7 clicks out
I´m 72 kg with gear on and I feel that I bottom out in places that I shouldnt. These are my settings:
300 spring
140 psi
b.o. closed to max.
lsc 17 clicks out
hsc 5 clicks out
rebound 7 clicks out
I'm curious about the RC4 as well. From what I've read here, the RC4 is the best match for the Sunday. I have the DHX 5 on now, But I feel it's lacking. I was considering getting it push'd and tuned for it, but would it be a better upgrade to buy an RC4 and get that push'd over the DHX?
I think the idea was that with an RC4, you don't need it to be pushed. DHX, well, yeah.
Hello guys,
Thank you all for advices, but the problem is way weirder than this.
The frame was repainted by myself. It's surely an M size, because I stripped down the original paint. It was painted on it M size.
Seat wise, I never seat while I ride, so I don't see this an issue. And since we're here, the Sunday's reach of an M, is abit larger than your averrage M size downhill rig. Also about sizing, my previous bike was a Session M size, with wich I had no problems whatsoever.
Also, regarding sizing, bear in mind that the big size long busses is something relatively new. Back in the days, short was the name of the game. Remember those Lobos? So, I have way more background on small bikes than on these new school long ones. Heck, I see parts these days that are vintage, and I was riding when they were like gold, and the newest thing on the shelves (Manitou 4, V Brakes, first Gustav M, XVerts and so on)
As for the frame, I think it's just optical illusion. It's the standard DHX 5.0 in it, and there's no linkage that can go other way arround in the frame. In the pictures, the front end was pushed as low as it could go, also the bars were with minimum rise. At the current state, I have 30 rise bars, and the boxxer is fixed as high as I could go. So I lifted the front end to the max. I am also using now headset angle setters. The head angle should be now 63, so it is slack as it should be. It is better this way, but I'm still missing something.
The distance between the crown and the frame, I also noticed it, though it was e13 lowstack headsets in them. The race on the fork was higher, don't know why.
The problem that I see with it is the following: all the bikes I ever rode, while cornering or whatever, it was always a game of holding it in place and not lose the rear end sideways. The Sunday I feel it's the other way arround. It never slides beyond the stable point. Somehow I feel it's the Sunday's own talent to stay true in corners and in drifts. Which is great, I'm way better now at drifts with it. But there is a downside to it too. When I pass a rockgarden or some technical roots, I usually balance the bike with my upper body, or my butt and my knees. But this technique has no effect on the Sunday. And this is were I'm having the issue with it. If something goes wrong, I can't rebalance it. And I constantly feel unstable sideways.
I can say that Sam Hill had his words right when he said about it: "hold it wide, and let it slide", but unfortunately that's not my style. I'm not the moto drifter guy.
Else that I can say about it, is that it is trully a race bike. It'll react only when pushed 110%. Over the limit is where this bike feels confortable.
Suspension wise I have no problems with it. It lacks in pop besides the Session, but it's again Sam Hill's words: push it down to go up.
Cockpit wise I'm ok on it. I feel confortable on it. Don't feel it small on me at all. Mind you, I can ride fast other M size bikes, except the Sunday.
Funny thing is, that all other riders in my group say it's a great bike, but nobody can explain my issue. Though, I'm always last with the Sunday, and always first with whatever other bike. That's a bummer.
I've currently owned over 30 bikes and never had a problem like this.
I start to believe it has something to do with Murphy's laws more than with something objective.
DrSouce169 - I am at home with CNC I could say. If there would be enough itnerest, I could make a few sets of plates. Or, I can make the Gcode and send it to you, so you could machine it in your area.
One more time, thanks guys, I really apreciate your input.
Take care,
Mihai
P.S. if there is somebody who'd be interested in a change of triangles M vs L, I would be interested. Mine is a World Cup 2009-er, with fresh new bearings in it, no dent's no cracks.
Thank you all for advices, but the problem is way weirder than this.
The frame was repainted by myself. It's surely an M size, because I stripped down the original paint. It was painted on it M size.
Seat wise, I never seat while I ride, so I don't see this an issue. And since we're here, the Sunday's reach of an M, is abit larger than your averrage M size downhill rig. Also about sizing, my previous bike was a Session M size, with wich I had no problems whatsoever.
Also, regarding sizing, bear in mind that the big size long busses is something relatively new. Back in the days, short was the name of the game. Remember those Lobos? So, I have way more background on small bikes than on these new school long ones. Heck, I see parts these days that are vintage, and I was riding when they were like gold, and the newest thing on the shelves (Manitou 4, V Brakes, first Gustav M, XVerts and so on)
As for the frame, I think it's just optical illusion. It's the standard DHX 5.0 in it, and there's no linkage that can go other way arround in the frame. In the pictures, the front end was pushed as low as it could go, also the bars were with minimum rise. At the current state, I have 30 rise bars, and the boxxer is fixed as high as I could go. So I lifted the front end to the max. I am also using now headset angle setters. The head angle should be now 63, so it is slack as it should be. It is better this way, but I'm still missing something.
The distance between the crown and the frame, I also noticed it, though it was e13 lowstack headsets in them. The race on the fork was higher, don't know why.
The problem that I see with it is the following: all the bikes I ever rode, while cornering or whatever, it was always a game of holding it in place and not lose the rear end sideways. The Sunday I feel it's the other way arround. It never slides beyond the stable point. Somehow I feel it's the Sunday's own talent to stay true in corners and in drifts. Which is great, I'm way better now at drifts with it. But there is a downside to it too. When I pass a rockgarden or some technical roots, I usually balance the bike with my upper body, or my butt and my knees. But this technique has no effect on the Sunday. And this is were I'm having the issue with it. If something goes wrong, I can't rebalance it. And I constantly feel unstable sideways.
I can say that Sam Hill had his words right when he said about it: "hold it wide, and let it slide", but unfortunately that's not my style. I'm not the moto drifter guy.
Else that I can say about it, is that it is trully a race bike. It'll react only when pushed 110%. Over the limit is where this bike feels confortable.
Suspension wise I have no problems with it. It lacks in pop besides the Session, but it's again Sam Hill's words: push it down to go up.
Cockpit wise I'm ok on it. I feel confortable on it. Don't feel it small on me at all. Mind you, I can ride fast other M size bikes, except the Sunday.
Funny thing is, that all other riders in my group say it's a great bike, but nobody can explain my issue. Though, I'm always last with the Sunday, and always first with whatever other bike. That's a bummer.
I've currently owned over 30 bikes and never had a problem like this.
I start to believe it has something to do with Murphy's laws more than with something objective.
DrSouce169 - I am at home with CNC I could say. If there would be enough itnerest, I could make a few sets of plates. Or, I can make the Gcode and send it to you, so you could machine it in your area.
One more time, thanks guys, I really apreciate your input.
Take care,
Mihai
P.S. if there is somebody who'd be interested in a change of triangles M vs L, I would be interested. Mine is a World Cup 2009-er, with fresh new bearings in it, no dent's no cracks.
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pupetxls - If you could make the upper linkage plates for me that would be killer! I never want to get rid of my sunday, but I can't very well ride it with a messed up linkage.. frgeoff said he was interested in 2 sets of linkage plates, so there's three right there. I'm sure there would be interest from other people, I could put it out there on Pinkbike and see if anyone is interested there. BUT besides that, I am more thing willing to pay a fair price for these.. I don't know how much longer my baby will last in her current state
So, what you need then is the newer side plates? Don't mind me for asking, but what's wrong with the old ones? I could make them. I'll look arround for a machine shop to see pricing for the work and the aluminum. But it will be no sooner than 2 weeks time, because I'll be gone for a week or so.
pupetxls - I'd say my experiences are similar, I tend to hang over the back too much..
When I'm forward and aggressive it seems much better...
Suggestions:
Spring: I'm 85kg riding weight with 400 spring. After using 300 and 350 the 400 is excellent. Had the high speed rebound tuned for 400 spring.
Shock setup (DHX5): Propredal off completely, bottom out all the way out, 150psi. Rebound 6-8 clicks in from full fast. I don't bottom this out, even though most commenters suggest bottom out all the way in. 300 and 350 spring used to always bottom out, closing the shock bottom out can't compensate, need the right spring!
Front setup: Always found higher bars and stiffer setup helps to allow me to get further forward on the bike through all types of sections, the bike seems to like this.
Riding: When riding with weight forward and elbows out the bike works, otherwise it doesn't!
When I'm forward and aggressive it seems much better...
Suggestions:
Spring: I'm 85kg riding weight with 400 spring. After using 300 and 350 the 400 is excellent. Had the high speed rebound tuned for 400 spring.
Shock setup (DHX5): Propredal off completely, bottom out all the way out, 150psi. Rebound 6-8 clicks in from full fast. I don't bottom this out, even though most commenters suggest bottom out all the way in. 300 and 350 spring used to always bottom out, closing the shock bottom out can't compensate, need the right spring!
Front setup: Always found higher bars and stiffer setup helps to allow me to get further forward on the bike through all types of sections, the bike seems to like this.
Riding: When riding with weight forward and elbows out the bike works, otherwise it doesn't!
Hi there PTD,
Yep, it seems we speak the same language.
What I feel on it, is that I have to be either moto, and lean forwards, either oldie Palmer like, way way in the back, and always pushing it extra. These are the two positions that seem to work on it, front or back limit. Though, I'm more of a middle/back positionned rider.
What I also noticed is that, if kept idle it sucks big time. If constantly pumped, thrown etc then it's butter. You constantly have to work it, even if the terrain doesn't really requires it.
The shock - I'm 72-75kg, with 350 spring, but I also feel I need to change it. I use 150psi, bottom out half closed and still bottom it out. I'd also like to go for the 400 spring.
So, from my understanding so far, there really is "bike for style" in the end. Too bad, I really really loved this bike. It's my all time favourite, but in the end, it may be better to split ways...
Thanks,
Mihai
You dont bottom out too often??
The previous owner rode around without the bolts not tourqued enough, so the inner piece became ovalized, and you can feel the shock pin moving when the linkage isn't on the bike. I figured I might as well try and find the updated design versus the old one, but both are impossible to find. It would be great if you could do that for me. Let me know, either send me a PM or just leave me a message on here.
Cheers
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