[Udi]

Yeah, I have two sundays - one has a cane creek and one has a bos. I think the bos is better suited with the larger shaft, but it's still not exactly progressive. It has been my favourite shock of everything I've tried so far, but I haven't run an RC4 in it. What are you running at the moment rich? Also, I doubt the bos link would take much extra work to fit the RC4. That said, I'm just running normal sunday links modified, as they are much lighter than the bos.

Sandwich - I'd get the RC4. Not sure what it's like in the US but locally they sell for reasonable prices because people take them out of frames to "up" grade. The DHX isn't really able to be all that strongly damped or progressive without being harsh in stock guise w/propedal, and if you get the MX tune, you'll lose progression by losing the boost valve.

I'll be able to comment on it in a month or two because I'll try it anyway. Still I bet there's someone here running one already, after dw suggested it and all.

 

[Sandwich]

hmmm....not likely, but does anybody know if the RC4 would require a "custom tune" like the DHX and vivid?

 

[saruti]

UDI

I'v swap my DHX5 to a RC4 a few mounths ago

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237385

the progression of this shock is noticable from the first run
never bottom the sunday again since then.

tryed the ccdb and the elka 5 on the sunday too.
both worked great. but needed alot of HS compression to make them progressive...
the RC4 is great. you will love it.

 

[saruti]

I have the raceface diabulos on my sunday.
can I replace the bearings in the bb?

thanks.

 

[richgardiner]

I'm running a dhx 3 at the moment that came on the bike when I brought it.

I haven't really considered the rc4 mainly due to the fact that when I upgrade the shock, I want to be able to use it on my next frame, hence why I'm particularly interested in the bos/cane creek, and not a shock that as you have said a couple of posts above me, people are taking them out of frames to upgrade them, I want my bike to be unique and special! Also, I'd rather not have to dremel out my link to get a shock to fit if its possible to achieve equally good results with the 2 shocks mentioned below.

I've been working hard over the winter and spring so far, and when I get back from canada, I intend on buying some bos forks and a new rear shock, which I intend to run for a good few years seeming as these products are at the top of the market right now, so its going to be a fairly important decision!

I've been thinking so much between these two shocks about their differences (I've basically been trying to find out as much as I can about the pro's and cons of running them on the sunday without speaking to many people about their experiences as its quite hard finding people who have run either of these shocks on a sunday! Thankfully, Udi, you have run both, so any information I have read from you has been pretty influential in my thoughts so far! but most of the information I have got about the 2 shocks is from the 2 very useful reviews posted by Socket on here and Farkin.

Ok I'm going to probably bore quite a few of you now, but in the last couple of spare days I've had, I've been trying to put all my thoughts about which shock to go for into words before I forget them, as theres so damn much to think about!

I don't know if you guys reckon this is unnecessarily clogging up this thread, if you do I'm happy for it to be moved over to a separate thread of its own?

Direct c+p from what I've typed out:

ESSAY ALERT!


Bos Stoy vs. Cane Creek Double Barrel for an Iron horse Sunday

For/Against

Bos Stoy - £640 – Pearce Cycles, Biketart, Alpinebikes (£634), Shinny Racing (£650)

Cane Creek - £495 Tf Tuned (or buy when I’m in Canada for $650 / £404 - £416 depending on exchange rate.)

Why I should buy the Stoy / Not buy the double barrel:


• Needle Roller Bearings. Much less stiction, improved wear and durability, whereas the cane creek uses DU bushings on less popular bikes with their shocks (I’m pretty sure the Sunday falls under this category and thus cannot use the spherical bushings).

• The Stoy is custom valved and tuned to the rider/bike. This is important due to the Sunday’s suspension characteristics (it’s quite a linear frame) requiring a progressive shock to make the most of its potential. The cane creek does not come with a specific ‘tune’, it is valved to suit all bikes, with its massive range of adjustment allowing it to be used across a number of different frames instead of each shock being valved for a particular bike.

• Given that the Stoy is valved for the bike, the adjustment range is tailored to the bike, meaning that theoretically, you cannot end up with a ‘poor’ setup, and you are guaranteed a good ‘out of the box’ setup. The shock is valved to have a range of finer, more useable adjustments for your bike. On the other hand, if you have the cane creek, on a bike that requires such light rebound and compression dampening such as the Sunday, you will end up using a very small range of the available adjustment to obtain a desirable result (perhaps putting the massive potential of the cane creek to waste somewhat?), while at the same time, the cane creek is a much easier shock to end up with a poor setup, even by running 1 click too much of compression, rebound etc.

• The Sunday has a low leverage ratio, and earlier reports of Sunday/CCDB setups proved to be rather unsuccessful, due to the shock being over-damped for the frame, and the newer ones which now have enough adjustment range to work with low leverage bikes being too linear in the mid to end stroke, meaning it bottoms out too easily compared to other shocks when running the correct spring rate. The bottoming out problem can be solved by a higher spring rate, but then this sacrifices the shock’s small bump sensitivity, which isn’t ideal when you’re spending the best part of £500 on a shock! Am I right in thinking that both of these shocks are supposed to be run with a lower spring rate and more sag (around 40%) to allow the shock’s dampening to do the work?

• I will eventually run Bos forks upfront, would a Bos-Bos setup be more balanced than a Bos-Cane Creek setup?

• As far as I’m aware, I can use my nuke proof ti spring on the Bos, apparently I would need a Cane Creek specific spring and the nuke proof definitely wouldn’t fit or is this rubbish?

• Less adjusters = Less to mess up?

• Can be disassembled and rebuilt (according to the Bos website anyway, not sure if they meant this as in the consumer can do this themselves or if they meant it can be done by a service center like all other shocks), would a cane creek have to be sent back to Tf tuned for a rebuild?


Why I should buy the Cane Creek and not the Stoy:


• ~£145 Cheaper than the Bos

• Tf tuned now service and distribute Cane creek. This is a big plus point, as they are known nationwide for their quality of customer service, and the work that they carry out (contrary perhaps to Stendec, which was as far as I’m aware, the only cane creek service center in the UK up until now). Bos is dealt through R53 engineering – by the sounds of it, contacting/getting a response from R53 is quite difficult due to it being a one-man brand. I know very little about R53 and their service so if anyone could share their experience on this that would be great. Are the shocks sent form R53 to Bos in France or are they actually serviced/fixed onsite at R53.

• Due to the Cane Creek not having a specific ‘tune’ or ‘valving’, this means that I can transfer the shock over to a different frame in the future, providing it takes a 9.5 x 3 shock, whereas with the Bos, I would likely have to get it revalved to suit the new frame, I have no idea how much this costs, but it is an extra cost to add onto the already higher rrp of getting the Bos. This means I would end up with a shock which is widely regarded as one of the, if not the best mountain bike shock on the market, which I can use with whatever frame I want without it having to be revalved/tuned.

• Able to use spherical bearings for the spring, I’ve no idea if the same can be done with Bos shocks.

• The newer (2009 and onwards if I remember correctly?) Double Barrels now come with enough damping range to suit low leverage bikes such as the Morewood Makalu and the Ironhorse Sunday, so the cane creek can be set up to work with the Sunday, albeit with a very small amount of compression and rebound damping being used? The one guy I’ve spoken to on a forum who is running a newer style Double barrel on a Sunday is running 1 click of lsc/lsr and one full turn of hsc/hsr. This is the same person who has reported the cane creek blowing through the mid and end stroke too easily and said how this could be resolved by upping the spring rate. However, even though the cane creek is not ‘tuned’, is it possible to get one tuned to a specific bike? Or would that void the warranty. If I was able to get it tuned, then the newer cane creek with the improved damping range could be a better option?

• Cane creek has beginning and end stroke rebound, bos seems to have the low speed rebound set fairly fast from the factory (they believe it works better that way apparently), then the rebound adjuster primarily controls the HSR from what I understand. Therefore cane creek gives the customer more freedom and choice (and arguably, control) over rebound settings unless I’m mistaken? However this wouldn’t bother me too much as if I was given the choice of high/low speed rebound adjustment I would probably run low speed faster than high speed.

• I’ve seen a few reports saying that I can use my nukeproof spring with the ccdb, but then also others say that you can’t. Does anyone know the deal on this?

• More availability of parts than the Bos? I’ve heard stories of people having to get their shocks sent back to France because the uk distributors didn’t have enough spare parts in stock.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously all of these points have been made from how I've interpreted information on these forums, so there could be plenty of innaccurate stuff in there, all of which I would massively appreciate if you guys correct me on!
I'm keen to learn more about suspension and damping etc, but I've got a feeling trying to do my homework on these shocks in this way is jumping into the deep end slightly

So, any real life experience of the 2 shocks on this bike would be greatly appreciated, as would any corrections about the assumptions I've made in the points above, I've worked hard to earn the cash for this so I want it to be an informed decision!
What is equally important is that we might be able to establish a number of things that will help others make the same decision as me on for these shocks with this frame in the future!

Cheers for your time dudes!

 

[richgardiner]

Another one to throw into the mix, push'ed vivid team issue?
http://www.pushindustries.com/2009/index.php?menu_id=44&type=products&title=VIVID 4.1/5.1&product_id=65

however, getting a ti spring for a vivid = more £££
buying a vivid = £££ then sending it off to be pushed =£££ all of this probably adds up to at least the same price as a bos/cane creek?

Also, I'd rather have a shock that will perform as good as possible the moment it comes through my door, instead of having to send it off to get tuned, which is why im pretty keen on the bos/ccdb

 

[Udi]

rich -

I only skimmed what you said there, but don't forget that the most shiny and unique part isn't necessarily the best. If that is actually a factor that sways you then by all means go down that route, but otherwise do consider what might be best for you and your frame rather than what will look/sound it.

Personally I'd take the BOS over the CCDB for these reasons:

- Easier to tune, most of the hard work is done for you
- More progressive (albeit not fantastic)
- Two-stage compression shimstack allows more sensitivity and stronger mid-speed damping; it's hard to achieve the latter on the CCDB
- Less stiction; due to the point above, perhaps slightly less seal/bushing drag, and assuming you run needle bearing upper hardware (but read below).

Negatives to the BOS, that I have not seen mentioned:

- Won't fit needle bearing on sunday unless you come up with custom 8mm hardware (I did) for upper shock mount, you can't do it for the lower mount and it's not needed anyway thankfully (minimal rotation).
- No hydraulic topout, same with the CCDB. Just makes it feel slightly cheap/cheesy, you don't notice it riding, but the more common shocks have this feature. (vivid / dhx / etc).
- Rebound adjuster affects compression. This is hard to avoid while maintaining some of the benefits the BOS offers, but it's still a little annoying.
- Not actually custom tuned, you just get given the closest bet from 1 of 5 tunes (tune ST04 in this case). On the plus side, if the leverage ratio on your new frame is similar, it won't need a revalve.
- It's not a progressive shock, and the sunday was originally designed around one. That means you'll be running it firmer than ideal (damping and/or spring rate) to stop it bottoming out, and thus have a harsher bike on bumps.

Anyway I'll post up what I think if I get an RC4, judging by saruti's thread and dw's comments as well as my brief experience on the shock... it might be a better option for this frame. Might be worth considering if you're keeping the sunday for a while.

 

[richgardiner]

Ok cool man, cheers for that info! I'll probably hold back then on the cane creek and bos, and wait till after canada until I buy a new shock, by then maybe you and a few others will have some riding time done on the rc4. If it does turn out that it is indeed a better shock for the sunday than the bos/db then I'll more than likely go for it, as I do intend to keep the sunday for a while.

I could pick up a rc4 for around £200 second hand, which I'd rather do than getting the dhx3 tuned. Does anyone who has used the rc4 know if it requires a special tune? Any difference between running an oem one on there or one purchased direct from fox?

Or, I could just get the dhx pushed (not sure between push factory tune or push mx tune), and wait till I eventually get a new frame (which these 2 shocks may be more suited to than the sunday) till I splash out on an expensive shock.

Its bound to be better than a stock dhx 3!

 

[whiteman]

I saw this question asked once in this thread where it recieved no answer. I googled it and come up with nothing as well.

I bought my replacement decals from BikesDecals.com. They are exactly the same as the originals and they come in heaps of different colours. I highly recommend them.

Here's a link to them
http://www.bikesdecals.com/iron-horse-sunday-decals-kit-black-p-270.html?cPath=52&osCsid=80f6c66658ec644eb0feafa850f0cd10

 

[monkeyfcuker]

Rich, where you based in the UK? My Sunday's a small and I only weigh 10 stone but I'd be willing to give you a quick blast on the old girl of we ever crossed paths if it'd fit you!

I went from a DHX3 to a Stoy and the difference is night and day between the two, I could never get the DHX to feel better than alright but the Stoy just feels right straight away. I went from thinking/worrying about what the back end was doing to not thinking about it at all.

Now don't get me wrong the shock is damn good but it's not made a **** of difference to how badly I do in races haha! Just be sure your buying it for the right reasons, ie you just want the bling

There is one place I feel it does make a huge difference and that's when you've had a long day on the hill. The small mistakes I made when I was tired always ended spazzing me off line more often than not ending in a crash with the DHX where as with the Stoy the bike is way more forgiving, notably at the Fort William endurance DH, I found I could still hit stuff hard with the Stoy that would have resulted in pain on the DHX

 

[BmxConvert]

I bought my replacement decals from BikesDecals.com. They are exactly the same as the originals and they come in heaps of different colours. I highly recommend them.

Here's a link to them
http://www.bikesdecals.com/iron-horse-sunday-decals-kit-black-p-270.html?cPath=52&osCsid=80f6c66658ec644eb0feafa850f0cd10

How was dealing with them? No bogus card charges? Decals good quality?

 

[Udi]

BmxConvert - whiteman linked to the guys I was talking about, a guy here used those decals and they look great, just like factory and the size is perfect. I doubt you'll go wrong.

 

[richgardiner]

Rich, where you based in the UK? My Sunday's a small and I only weigh 10 stone but I'd be willing to give you a quick blast on the old girl of we ever crossed paths if it'd fit you!

I'm in Bristol so quite far away from Carlisle! What I think I might do is buy a second hand rc4 and try it out, seeming as I have a bos link. Seems like a much cheaper and just as good option as a boutique shock, which I can treat myself to when I eventually get a new frame I just want to make sure that any old rc4 would work on the sunday or would I have to get it tuned?

 

[Udi]

Any old will work, no dramas there with special tunes and whatnot.

But I think newer/later is better... I'm no expert but I heard the very earliest ones had a few issues, that's all. It might be worth asking in the main forum about it, I could be wrong / making stuff up haha. Don't worry about the tune though, no dramas there, if anything most people revalving RC4's are revalving them more heavily if anything.

Edit - also, make sure you cycle the shock in the frame carefully with no spring (also remove the upper spring seat to allow the bumper to compress easier) to check for clearance.

 

[Sandwich]

cool, thanks for that. I think I'll see if I can rebuild my stock DHX for now, then see if I can get a mid-season RC4 upgrade going. Got my frame fully stripped and bearings ordered...now it's just reassembly as I wait for the final few parts (angleset)!

 

[tombate]

I need some help with the freehub on my Iron Horse Sunday 2009 wheels, I need a new spring to fit these hubs for the freehub but i cant find any information about them anyone and i cant find anyone thats had the same problem before and managed to find one that works, I don't need the pawls yet just a new spring for now, I'm based in the uk, but if anyone knows of one which is compatible it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time,

 

[Sandwich]

yo dude, just gonna fathom a guess but most low end hubs come from similar factories. I bet something like an Azonic hub has the same spring your looking for.

Otherwise, check your LBS, they might be able to help.

 

[whiteman]

How was dealing with them? No bogus card charges? Decals good quality?

They were great to deal with, no bogus card charges. The decals arrived quickly and were great quality.

 

[richgardiner]

Any old will work, no dramas there with special tunes and whatnot.

But I think newer/later is better... I'm no expert but I heard the very earliest ones had a few issues, that's all. It might be worth asking in the main forum about it, I could be wrong / making stuff up haha. Don't worry about the tune though, no dramas there, if anything most people revalving RC4's are revalving them more heavily if anything.

Edit - also, make sure you cycle the shock in the frame carefully with no spring (also remove the upper spring seat to allow the bumper to compress easier) to check for clearance.

Sweet, cheers mate! got my eye on a brand new 2011 one thats been taken off a v10c so hopefully getting on that! failing that ive found a 2010 one which is also brand new, but I'll try and get the '11 one

I emailed the owner of this bike:

And he says it goes in fine with no mods required which is great news, but I'll double check anyway!

 

[tombate]

I am still struggling to find any information about the freehub for the stock 2009 Wheel set, If anyone has any information it would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks Tom.

 

[Sandwich]

when replacing bearings, do I want to apply anything to the outside of the race? The fit is pretty tight, I'm not worried about play at this point. I'm sure they'll slide in with a vise or C-clamp, but I'm wondering if I should apply anti-seize or grease or anything, or just push em in.

 

[stumpjump]

Most of them slide in pretty easily with jsut the application of some bearing grease. The only ones that give me problem are the DW-link port on the fron triangle, for some reason they always want to go in at a little bit of an angle. Make sure to use a little extra grease and a good vise and you will be good to go.

when replacing bearings, do I want to apply anything to the outside of the race? The fit is pretty tight, I'm not worried about play at this point. I'm sure they'll slide in with a vise or C-clamp, but I'm wondering if I should apply anti-seize or grease or anything, or just push em in.

 

[Sandwich]

Cool. None of them "slide" in, they all will need some kind of a press, but I just wasn't sure whether an ounce of prevention now (grease on the outside of the race) is worth a pound of cure (hammer and curse words during removal) then, or if it won't matter or may even be detrimental...

 

[richgardiner]

Ordered the RC4 and its getting posted on Monday! A season in whistler should be good testing grounds for the shock setup haha
Udi, how did you get the custom hardware made up for the needle bearing shock mounts? do the bearings only come with an 8mm ID or something? Considering getting a set made up not not sure what dimensions I need.

I found this: http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/needle_roller_choice.php?gclid=CK-RtZ6l2KcCFUEa4Qod2yvQ8w

But no idea what type of needlebearings I would need, or what sizes to go for.

Also, this http://www.tftunedshox.com/MountKitGuide.aspx

comes up with the following measurements for a sunday's mounting kit

top mount: length - 30mm / OD - 12.7mm / ID - 10mm
Bottom Mount: Length - 29mm / OD - 12.7mm / ID - 9mm

I could have sworn that both mounts were 30x10 but maybe im wrong..

 

[Udi]

Both mounts are definitely 30x10.

For the upper mount, if you are trying to needle-bearing the fox, I think enduro make a full kit for them. However, I suspect it may actually use 6mm hardware, if that's the case, see if you can buy a 30x8mm kit from them instead and use that with custom hardware as described below. No one likes 6mm hardware. If they do an 8mm sunday kit though, just buy that, it will save you doing custom stuff.

Anyway all I did was - find two female chainring bolts (short ones), drill them out to 8mm ID, slide them into your link (they have a 10mm OD) and use an 8mm bolt (high-ten steel) of appropriate length and nut (nyloc, or loctite it) through the lot. Oh yeah, you'll have to cut down the chainring bolt to the right length obviously / file it flat on the inside of the link after installation. Use loctite 609 on the outside of the chainring bolt when you fit it to the link if you want it to stay there, but I haven't seen a need.

If you want to make up something more professional with conical heads to fit into the links neatly then go nuts (I probably will now that I have a lathe handy) but my description above will explain what you need to do either way.

Edit: The BOS needle bearings have an 8mm ID yes, obviously you can't fit a needle bearing with current shock eyelet sizes and 10mm hardware, there's just not enough room.

 

[richgardiner]

Cheers Udi, I emailed enduro and they do a needle roller and hardware kit for ironhorse frames which uses 8mm hardware so I'll get on that.

 

[Udi]

That's very good to hear, let us know how it all goes.

I will probably go for the same combo myself if/when I try it.

 

[richgardiner]

Just to be clear, its loctite 609 inbetween the outside of the rear dw link axle and the inside of the link - can it be used anywhere else to prevent play developing such as on the outside of the bearings/inside of bearing seats, or even with the main upper pivot axle?

Then 262 for the shock mount countersunk bolts/upper shock mount hardware

And 242 for all others?

 

[Udi]

Yeah that's correct, you can use 609 when installing the swingarm upper bearings (on the outside of the bearings themselves) but if there is no play there don't worry about it.

You honestly probably don't need to use 262 on the shock bolts either, just use 242 on everything.

The only shock bolts that I've seen come loose with 242 is the two lower shock pin screws (countersunk) so you can 262 those if you don't intend on removing them for a while. If they are the stock screws (not high tensile / 12.9) just use 242 still, as the heads are prone to damage anyway.

Udi

 

[Sandwich]

hmm...I didn't use any loctite while reassembling mine. In fact, I used anti-seize compound. Do people have a regular problem with those bolts coming loose?

I found some nice 10.9 metric bolts, should hold up a bit better than the cheese and mustard alloy that came stock....but I was reluctant to use loctite on anything.

 

[tombate]

can anyone help me tracking down a new spring for the freehub for an iron horse Sunday Elite 2009?

Really need some help with this,

Thanks for your time, Tom,

 

[brownie1664]

I had the same issue on my 2008 Team. The spring in the free hub decided to break into three pieces due to rust!! that will teach me to clean the bike to much. I'm not sure if the hub on your 2009 Elite is the same but my unbranded hubs are made by a company called King Kong. Struggled to find a replacement spring so in the end i managed to make one out of some stainless material i had. Still working fine and now the hub sounds more like a pro2!! If you still find your having problems tracking one down I'll see if i can make another one up for you.

 

[richgardiner]

Anyone got the dimensions for the cross brace bit that goes inbetween the upper links behind the upper shock mount? Mine may have been lost at the anodisers so I'm just thinking ahead so if it is, I can go and get one made up somewhere.
Cheers!

 

[Udi]

*click*

 

[Sandwich]

out loud, at work, i said "f*ckin a"

nice work. Are you running an angleset or anything?

 

[saruti]

good looking bike
will be better with some decals

 

[Huck Banzai]

The enduro needle bearing shock kits = clickety imprecise play like very worn bushings...

be very wary, hopefully they have tightened tolerance...

 

[Gary]

good looking bikedining room
will be better with some decals

Seriously tho.. your frame cut out work looks great, did you do it for weight saving, don't suppose you have a big problem with mud collecting over there do you?

I reckon the only frame colour that can pull off no decals is Black tho..

 

[richgardiner]

The enduro needle bearing shock kits = clickety imprecise play like very worn bushings...

be very wary, hopefully they have tightened tolerance...

****e, mine have just turned up after waiting a week and a half for them! lateral or vertical play? am i better off installing a normal bushing/shock axle then?

 

[mtdtech]

Hey guys, im new to this forum. Looks like im missing out alot here. Glad to be part of the IH owner. Now, here is mine. Cheers!

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/163893_489671160582_501700582_6422470_859489_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/179385_489671295582_501700582_6422476_7717552_n.jpg